linux-arm-kernel useless for development (was Re: Your message to Linux-arm-kernel awaits moderator approval)

Your mail to 'Linux-arm-kernel' with the subject

Re: [Bug #13833] Kernel Oops when trying to suspend with ubifs
mounted on block2mtd mtd device

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

Too many recipients to the message

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL:

    http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/confirm/linux-arm-kernel/f8f1b8bf951193aa673ceab3235d78c807c858da

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Quoted 6 lines · Pavel Machek

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Given your attitude, I'm going to say I'm NOT going to do a damned thing if you can't talk to me in a sane and civilised way.

Treat me like shit and you will be treated as shit.

Quoted 10 lines · Russell King

Quoted 6 lines · Pavel Machek

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Given your attitude, I'm going to say I'm NOT going to do a damned thing if you can't talk to me in a sane and civilised way.

Fine. You are unwilling to fix the mailinglist,

Quoted 1 line

Treat me like shit and you will be treated as shit.

and your behaviour leaves quite a lot to be desired, so... can we simply move mailinglist to someone who can (and is willing) to actually maintain it, like vger?

It appears the answer to that is no. People are free to subscribe to the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me. However, it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that seems to be where the expertise is.

Moreover,

(a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.

(c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not* rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it doesn't like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than out-right rejecting it.

I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging about? Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved? It strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your whinging.

Quoted 5 lines · Russell King

It appears the answer to that is no. People are free to subscribe to the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me. However, it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that seems to be where the expertise is.

Quoted 4 lines

Moreover,

(a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.

When I tried asking in private, I was told to stop complaining or loose my mailing list subscription. I'd prefer not to make that mistake again.

Quoted 4 lines

(c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not* rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it doesn't like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than out-right rejecting it.

For lakml, held for moderation _does_ mean it will return with "posting rejected: no reason given" in few days. I have never seen any other result, and have got perfectly reasonable messages rejected with "no reason". So no, I do not believe there's cooperative human being moderating lakml.

Quoted 5 lines

I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging about? Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved? It strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your whinging.

So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who complains?

Quoted 12 lines · Pavel Machek

Quoted 9 lines · Russell King

It appears the answer to that is no. People are free to subscribe to the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me. However, it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that seems to be where the expertise is.

Moreover,

(a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.

Quoted 2 lines

When I tried asking in private, I was told to stop complaining or loose my mailing list subscription. I'd prefer not to make that mistake again.

... in response to your whinging about the "headers matched a filter rule" mailman whining. I had enough of your whinging and whining in April, and I've certainly had enough now. But guess what? The problem eventually got fixed after working out what was going on.

Quoted 8 lines

Quoted 5 lines

I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging about? Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved? It strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your whinging.

So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who complains?

No. My solution would have been to fix the mailing list had you not made this a public issue in an offensive way.

Quoted 5 lines · Russell King

It appears the answer to that is no. People are free to subscribe to the one on vger, where they won't have to "put up" with me. However, it seems that people much prefer to subscribe to my lists, because that seems to be where the expertise is.

Quoted 4 lines

Moreover,

(a) when ever you have a problem, you go shouting and making public accusations without trying first to resolve the problem in private.

When I tried asking in private, I was told to stop complaining or loose my mailing list subscription. I'd prefer not to make that mistake again.

Quoted 5 lines

(c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not* rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it doesn't like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than out-right rejecting it.

For lakml, held for moderation _does_ mean it will return with "posting rejected: no reason given" in few days. I have never seen any other result, and have got perfectly reasonable messages rejected with "no reason". So no, I do not believe there's cooperative human being moderating lakml.

Quoted 5 lines

I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging about? Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved? It strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your whinging.

So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who complains?

Quoted 11 lines

Quoted 5 lines

(c) you really don't understand that "held for moderation" is *not* rejection, but merely a case of mailman spotting something it doesn't like and letting a *human* deal with it rather than out-right rejecting it.

For lakml, held for moderation _does_ mean it will return with "posting rejected: no reason given" in few days. I have never seen any other result, and have got perfectly reasonable messages rejected with "no reason". So no, I do not believe there's cooperative human being moderating lakml.

That's not true. For every message I reject I always explain the reason. Most of the time it is "Please subcribe before you're allowed to post".

Quoted 6 lines

Quoted 5 lines

I wonder, do you even know what happened to the message you're whinging about? Would you prefer that your message was silently dropped into /dev/null instead of having a chance of the issue being resolved? It strikes me that _that_ would be a better solution than all your whinging.

Quoted 2 lines

So... your solution to broken mailing list is to silence everyone who complains?

No, if you asked us in private, it would already be solved. I just increased the max_num_recipients from the default 15 to 30. That should solve your problem.

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Please fix it.

Pavel

Quoted 16 lines · On Sun 2009-08-02 13:52:10, [email protected]…

Your mail to 'Linux-arm-kernel' with the subject

Re: [Bug #13833] Kernel Oops when trying to suspend with ubifs
mounted on block2mtd mtd device

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

Too many recipients to the message

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL:

    http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/confirm/linux-arm-kernel/f8f1b8bf951193aa673ceab3235d78c807c858da

Signature · 2 lines

(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Erik,

Since Pavel is incapable of copying you (and seemingly believes that I'm solely responsible for admin'ing these lists), maybe you'd like to respond to this, which is another of Pavel's spontaneous public community wide whinges about linux-arm-kernel?

Quoted 8 lines

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Please fix it.

Quoted 13 lines

Pavel

Quoted 9 lines · On Sun 2009-08-02 13:52:10, [email protected]…

Your mail to 'Linux-arm-kernel' with the subject

Re: [Bug #13833] Kernel Oops when trying to suspend with ubifs
mounted on block2mtd mtd device

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

Quoted 7 lines

Quoted 7 lines

Too many recipients to the message

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL:

    http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/confirm/linux-arm-kernel/f8f1b8bf951193aa673ceab3235d78c807c858da

Quoted 7 lines

Quoted 7 lines

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Please fix it.

It is indeed possible to cross post between lkml and lakml. The easiest way to do that is to subscribe to the list and tell Mailman that you don't want to receive any messages.

When I get such a Mailman message from a list I just shrug. The moderator will take care eventually and if he rejects it I don't care. Suggest you try to do the same, there are may more important things than a message that doesn't get it to a list.

Hi!

Quoted 11 lines

Quoted 7 lines

Quoted 7 lines

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Please fix it.

It is indeed possible to cross post between lkml and lakml. The easiest way to do that is to subscribe to the list and tell Mailman that you don't want to receive any messages.

Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.

Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be increased to lkml levels?

Quoted 4 lines

When I get such a Mailman message from a list I just shrug. The moderator will take care eventually and if he rejects it I don't care. Suggest you try to do the same, there are may more important things than a message that doesn't get it to a list.

Well, I'd say that mailing list is pretty vital for Linux-style development, and those rejects are simply far too frequent.

Quoted 9 lines · Pavel Machek

Hi!

Quoted 7 lines

Quoted 7 lines

Quoted 7 lines

Please fix your mailinglist.

You claimed that it is possible to crosspost between lkml and lakml, yet the lakml does everything to prevent that -- even in case as simple as reporting that regression that affects arm.

Please fix it.

Quoted 8 lines

Quoted 3 lines

It is indeed possible to cross post between lkml and lakml. The easiest way to do that is to subscribe to the list and tell Mailman that you don't want to receive any messages.

Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.

Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be increased to lkml levels?

The mail size is currently 100K, having been recently increased. I believe this is a sane limit.

The number of people is 15, which is probably a little low. I've already explained my personal position over that limit concerning requests from you. Erik's position may be different.

Quoted 6 lines

Quoted 4 lines

When I get such a Mailman message from a list I just shrug. The moderator will take care eventually and if he rejects it I don't care. Suggest you try to do the same, there are may more important things than a message that doesn't get it to a list.

Well, I'd say that mailing list is pretty vital for Linux-style development, and those rejects are simply far too frequent.

This is the first time in at least one month that anything from you has been held according to the logs. If I look at my mailbox which has 3400+ messages from the list since 1st June, you have sent 78 messages, only one of which was held.

I think you need to develop a realistic sense of proportion.

I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say, a simple bug report.

If data protection laws prevent you from keeping an open list, can't you host the list at kernel.org or elsewhere?

Quoted 3 lines · David John

I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say, a simple bug report.

If only it were as simple as that.

I'm not willing to spend vast sums of money in
the legal domain to sort this issue out.
Neither am I willing to take a chance.

And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside the EU were to run the list. And people would have to independently subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber list outside the EU.

Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal profession... Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?

Quoted 5 lines · Russell King

And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside the EU were to run the list. And people would have to independently subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber list outside the EU.

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

Perhaps you overestimate the value of the arm subscriber database as well as the work involved to subscribe to a list.

Adding a "click this to subscribe to the new list" to the mailing list trailer would work reasonably well.

Quoted 3 lines

Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal profession... Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?

Perhaps not using the gas boiler is another option.

Quoted 6 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 5 lines · Russell King

And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside the EU were to run the list. And people would have to independently subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber list outside the EU.

Quoted 7 lines

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

Perhaps you overestimate the value of the arm subscriber database as well as the work involved to subscribe to a list.

Adding a "click this to subscribe to the new list" to the mailing list trailer would work reasonably well.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

I also believe that majordomo is still stuck in the dark ages wrt subscribing - having to have a carefully composed email message to subscribe or unsubscribe. Having mailman's web interface took a lot of work off of my shoulders when we moved the ARM lists off of vger.rutgers.edu all those years back having to educate people how to deal with majordomo.

Let's not forget - as Pavel has yet again proven - if you have a problem with a mailing list, who do you talk to. All the list admins? Of course not! You email rmk and/or mailing lists directly.

Quoted 4 lines

Quoted 3 lines

Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal profession... Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?

Perhaps not using the gas boiler is another option.

Maybe we should all go back to using coal fires then. Oops, we moved away from that to cleaner burning gas because of the smog problems caused by burning dirty fuels.

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
[email protected] mailing list.

This might help.

Signed-off-by Joe Perches <[email protected]>

MAINTAINERS +51 -1

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 ARM/AJECO 1ARM MACHINE SUPPORT
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 ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EP93XX ARM ARCHITECTURE
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 ARM/CIRRUS LOGIC EDB9315A MACHINE SUPPORT
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 ARM/COMPULAB CM-X270/EM-X270 and CM-X300 MACHINE SUPPORT
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 ARM/CORTINA SYSTEMS GEMINI ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Paulius Zaleckas <[email protected]>
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+L:	[email protected]
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+L:	[email protected]
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 ARM/FARADAY FA526 PORT
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 ARM/GLOMATION GESBC9312SX MACHINE SUPPORT
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 ARM/S3C2443 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2443/

@@ -795,6 +831,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c2443/
 ARM/S3C6400 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6400/

@@ -802,6 +839,7 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6400/
 ARM/S3C6410 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Ben Dooks <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 W:	http://www.fluff.org/ben/linux/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6410/

@@ -809,22 +847,26 @@ F:	arch/arm/mach-s3c6410/
 ARM/TECHNOLOGIC SYSTEMS TS7250 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected] (subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/THECUS N2100 MACHINE SUPPORT
 M:	Lennert Buytenhek <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected] (subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/NUVOTON W90X900 ARM ARCHITECTURE
 M:	Wan ZongShun <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected] (subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 W:	http://www.mcuos.com
 S:	Maintained
 
 ARM/VFP SUPPORT
 M:	Russell King <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/vfp/

@@ -924,6 +966,7 @@ F:	include/linux/atm*
 ATMEL AT91 MCI DRIVER
 M:	Nicolas Ferre <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected] (subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 W:	http://www.atmel.com/products/AT91/
 W:	http://www.at91.com/
 S:	Maintained

@@ -1502,6 +1545,7 @@ F:	drivers/infiniband/hw/cxgb3/
 CYBERPRO FB DRIVER
 M:	Russell King <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 W:	http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 S:	Maintained
 F:	drivers/video/cyber2000fb.*

@@ -2047,6 +2091,7 @@ FREESCALE IMX / MXC FRAMEBUFFER DRIVER
 M:	Sascha Hauer <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected] (moderated for non-subscribers)
 L:	[email protected] (subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/plat-mxc/include/mach/imxfb.h
 F:	drivers/video/imxfb.c

@@ -3391,6 +3436,7 @@ F:	include/linux/meye.h
 MOTOROLA IMX MMC/SD HOST CONTROLLER INTERFACE DRIVER
 M:	Pavel Pisa <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected] (subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 S:	Maintained
 F:	drivers/mmc/host/imxmmc.*
 

@@ -4093,6 +4139,7 @@ PXA2xx/PXA3xx SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <[email protected]>
 M:	Russell King <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 S:	Maintained
 F:	arch/arm/mach-pxa/
 F:	drivers/pcmcia/pxa2xx*

@@ -4106,12 +4153,14 @@ PXA168 SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <[email protected]>
 M:	Jason Chagas <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
 S:	Maintained
 
 PXA910 SUPPORT
 M:	Eric Miao <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 T:	git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/ycmiao/pxa-linux-2.6.git
 S:	Maintained
 

@@ -4353,6 +4402,7 @@ F:	net/iucv/
 S3C24XX SD/MMC Driver
 M:	Ben Dooks <[email protected]>
 L:	[email protected] (subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 S:	Supported
 F:	drivers/mmc/host/s3cmci.*
 

@@ -4548,6 +4598,7 @@ SHARP LH SUPPORT (LH7952X & LH7A40X)
 M:	Marc Singer <[email protected]>
 W:	http://projects.buici.com/arm
 L:	[email protected]	(subscribers-only)
+L:	[email protected]
 S:	Maintained
 F:	Documentation/arm/Sharp-LH/ADC-LH7-Touchscreen
 F:	arch/arm/mach-lh7a40x/
 
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------

List admin: http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel
FAQ:        http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/faq.php
Etiquette:  http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/etiquette.php

Quoted 8 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Quoted 2 lines

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
[email protected] mailing list.

I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries with [email protected] list.

Quoted 9 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Quoted 2 lines

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
[email protected] mailing list.

I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries with [email protected] list.

Quoted 9 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Quoted 2 lines

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
[email protected] mailing list.

I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries with [email protected] list.

Quoted 10 lines · Ben Dooks

Quoted 9 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Quoted 5 lines

Quoted 2 lines

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
[email protected] mailing list.

I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries with [email protected] list.

Perhaps this patch is more palatable. It's certainly shorter.

It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST). By the way, another section you maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a pattern entry nor a mailing list entry. Should it?

Quoted 4 lines · Joe Perches

It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST). By the way, another section you maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a pattern entry nor a mailing list entry. Should it?

I recently had to remove those pattern entries because they were plainly wrong (thanks to those who didn't CC anyone in the ARM community with those patches.) EB110ATX != EBSA110. See ce53895.

I had asked the maintainer of that platform to submit a patch to add the correct entries. Rather than having plainly bogus entries in there, let's have either nothing or the right entries.

Quoted 7 lines

Perhaps this patch is more palatable. It's certainly shorter.

It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST). By the way, another section you maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a pattern entry nor a mailing list entry. Should it?

I recently had to remove those pattern entries because they were plainly wrong (thanks to those who didn't CC anyone in the ARM community with those patches.)

Quoted 9 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Quoted 2 lines

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
[email protected] mailing list.

I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries with [email protected] list.

Resend for Andrew Morton

Quoted 10 lines · Ben Dooks

Quoted 9 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

There is already a vger based ARM list. I see no signs of people moving over to it. I summise that is because most people don't have a problem, and most people are happy with the existing lists as they stand. Could it be that it's only a minority who are having issues. I don't know.

Quoted 5 lines

Quoted 2 lines

Perhaps there is too little exposure of the
[email protected] mailing list.

I'm not subscribed, please do not add any of the samsung entries with [email protected] list.

Perhaps this patch is more palatable. It's certainly shorter.

It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST). By the way, another section you maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a pattern entry nor a mailing list entry. Should it?

Signed-off-by Joe Perches <[email protected]>

I like that. Open lists are useful.

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Quoted 3 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA

for contributors who send out patches to multiple subsystems. However, if you (and the rest of the arm people) don't see the value of opening the list up, why do you expect people to rush to support Joe's patch? It's you who is losing out on contributors and if you don't see that (or don't agree), you probably should keep the list subscriber-only, no?

Quoted 4 lines

Quoted 3 lines

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Quoted 1 line

I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA

Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Moreover, vger is trying to replicate the setup we had back in the early 90s, which was found to be sub-optimal - we split the lists into kernel stuff, userspace stuff and toolchain stuff to reduce the amount of ignored postings - so that people specialising in ARM userspace didn't have to wade through all the (vastly more) kernel discussions. Unfortunately, the new setup at vger would mean re- combining the lists. Maybe that's another factor that people don't like? Don't know.

I have a theory. People only complain about moderated mailing lists because they get messages telling them that their message has been caught. If moderated mailing lists didn't send back that message, (and the queue was processed in a timely manner) people would not complain one bit. So it is probably far better if I bend mailman such that it doesn't send out moderation messages - certainly to anyone called Pavel. ;)

Hi!

Quoted 4 lines

Quoted 4 lines

Quoted 3 lines

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Quoted 8 lines

Quoted 1 line

I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA

Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

FAQ still states that cc-ing between l-k and lakml is unwelcome. Reason why people prefer open lists is that you can cc both l-k and the other relevant list.

Moreover, vger is trying to replicate the setup we had back in the early 90s, which was found to be sub-optimal - we split the lists into kernel stuff, userspace stuff and toolchain stuff to reduce the amount of ignored postings - so that people specialising in ARM userspace didn't have to wade through all the (vastly more) kernel discussions. Unfortunately, the new setup at vger would mean re- combining the lists.

Quoted 6 lines · Pekka Enberg

Quoted 3 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Quoted 1 line

I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA

Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Quoted 9 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

Quoted 7 lines · Pekka Enberg

Quoted 3 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

I for one support open lists because subscriber-only lists are a PITA

Quoted 6 lines

Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Umm. (and I'd cc'd you about this privately _last week_)

Quoted 1 line · Joe Perches

Umm. (and I'd cc'd you about this privately _last week_)

1. I have no trace of that. Really.
2. Did you send it to only me or did also copy Erik?

Quoted 4 lines

It does add both linux-arm-kernel and linux-arm to section SIMTEC EB2410ITX (BAST). By the way, another section you maintain, SIMTEC EB110ATX (Chalice CATS), has neither a pattern entry nor a mailing list entry. Should it?

I recently had to remove those pattern entries because they were plainly wrong (thanks to those who didn't CC anyone in the ARM community with those patches.) EB110ATX != EBSA110. See ce53895.

Your request to the Linux-arm-kernel mailing list

Posting of your message titled "[PATCH] MAINTAINERS - arm
patterns?"

has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request:

"Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list. You have to subscribe before you're allowed to post. "

Quoted 8 lines · Joe Perches

Your request to the Linux-arm-kernel mailing list

Posting of your message titled "[PATCH] MAINTAINERS - arm
patterns?"

has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request:

Quoted 2 lines

"Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list. You have to subscribe before you're allowed to post. "

Prior to subscribing, I receive those a couple of times after doing group-reply to some cross-posted thread on another list, probably uclinux or lkml.

lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

There is also a feeling from some people in this community (they've told me themselves in private) that certain mainline folk have been actively trying to undermine the ARM community - given the recent "discussions" (more like flames) over things like the device tree, the HTC stuff, etc.

(and the queue was processed in a timely manner) people would not complain one bit. So it is probably far better if I bend mailman

O> Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only

Quoted 5 lines

lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which will free up your time ?

Quoted 4 lines

There is also a feeling from some people in this community (they've told me themselves in private) that certain mainline folk have been actively trying to undermine the ARM community - given the recent "discussions" (more like flames) over things like the device tree, the HTC stuff, etc.

Well if you will hide in your own cupboard under the stairs nobody is going to understand the ARM folks needs. You don't need malice to account for that.

Quoted 7 lines · Alan Cox

O> Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only

Quoted 5 lines

lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Quoted 4 lines

Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which will free up your time ?

As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they should talk to me about ARM mailing lists. Proven, multiple times by multiple people.

Moving them to vger isn't going to change that. The only effect that it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should be talking to.

Quoted 3 lines

Well if you will hide in your own cupboard under the stairs nobody is going to understand the ARM folks needs. You don't need malice to account for that.

That's not really fair Alan.

The issue is not about hiding. I believe it's about jealousness and resentment.

Quoted 8 lines · On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 10:47:36 +0100 Russell King - ARM Linux…

Quoted 7 lines · Alan Cox

O> Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only

Quoted 5 lines

lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Quoted 8 lines

Quoted 4 lines

Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which will free up your time ?

As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they should talk to me about ARM mailing lists. Proven, multiple times by multiple people.

You are missing the point entirely. Actually with your comment you are now missing two points

1. The point in the email that you ignored: Nobody cared whether mailman is buggy or the list admins are not doing their job or the list is badly configured. They just care it doesn't let them easily cc stuff over. In reality they probably blame the admins regardless of the real cause.

2. People talk to you on the ARM list because you don't seem to respond on the vger arm list ?

Quoted 4 lines

Moving them to vger isn't going to change that. The only effect that it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should be talking to.

Reality check. A mailing list name such as "linux-arm" is a tag attached to an object, its a handle nothing more. Moving the object behind that handle to vger as a vger linux-arm list doesn't change things in the way you wish to pretend.

Most folks working on the kernel are far too busy to spend their time on that, and I'm curious how you could even arrive at such a ludicrous conclusion - what is the motiviation of this evil plot you see ?

From what I've seen, that is also far from reality. Some kernel people

Quoted 2 lines

2. People talk to you on the ARM list because you don't seem to respond on the vger arm list ?

You've totally missed the point.

When people have a problem with the existing lists, they talk to me and only me about it. I'm *not* talking about normal list traffic.

What I'm saying is that even if we did move over to vger, people would NOT talk to davem about problems. Their first stop reaction would be to talk to me.

Quoted 5 lines

Quoted 4 lines

Moving them to vger isn't going to change that. The only effect that it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should be talking to.

Quoted 4 lines

Reality check. A mailing list name such as "linux-arm" is a tag attached to an object, its a handle nothing more. Moving the object behind that handle to vger as a vger linux-arm list doesn't change things in the way you wish to pretend.

Correction - it does. I can only assume that this is a continuation of your above misunderstanding.

seem to have ample spare time to plot like this.

As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they should talk to me about ARM mailing lists. Proven, multiple times by multiple people.

Fact: These lists have _TWO_ admins. Fact: Everyone only talks to me about problems with these lists. Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Moving them to vger isn't going to change that. The only effect that it'll have is make me frustrated because I'm then constantly bothered by people who can't do the sodding research to work out who they should be talking to.

Humans are, at the end of the day, bone idle lazy creatures.

These lists have _TWO_ admins. Fact: Everyone only talks to me about problems with these lists. Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Humans are, at the end of the day, bone idle lazy creatures.

I believe it's about jealousness and resentment.

Quoted 2 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

These lists have _TWO_ admins. Fact: Everyone only talks to me about problems with these lists. Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Erik isn't listed in MAINTAINERS. You are.
Erik doesn't post much to lkml. You do.

Quoted 1 line

Humans are, at the end of the day, bone idle lazy creatures.

Which is why we invent tools to work for us.

Humans tend to reuse and improve the tools that work best. Your ARM based mail tool has caused some to do more work than they would like, so they would like to use a better tool.

I believe very few care very much if vger.kernel.org or arm.linux.org.uk is the list server. I don't. I just want my email to get through.

And I still don't want to subscribe.

Reduce the probability of forwarding spam, open the list, remove "(subscribers-only)" from the ARM MAINTAINERS entries and I'd be good-to-go.

Quoted 6 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 2 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

These lists have _TWO_ admins. Fact: Everyone only talks to me about problems with these lists. Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Erik isn't listed in MAINTAINERS. You are.
Erik doesn't post much to lkml. You do.

Is Matti, who also looks after vger, in MAINTAINERS ?

Given your position above, don't you think he should be, so that when people have a problem with LKML they can email him?

Quoted 4 lines

Humans tend to reuse and improve the tools that work best. Your ARM based mail tool has caused some to do more work than they would like, so they would like to use a better tool.

So instead you'd like me to do more work by having to service peoples requests about how to subscribe and unsubscribe from a mailing list which I don't run?

I invented a tool for that. It's called "running my own mailing list."

Quoted 5 lines

I believe very few care very much if vger.kernel.org or arm.linux.org.uk is the list server. I don't. I just want my email to get through.

And I still don't want to subscribe.

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

I don't care. I don't read arm.linux.org.uk.

How about you apply this?

scripts/get_maintainer.pl by default will not output "subscriber-only" list addresses.

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Quoted 1 line · Russell King - ARM Linux

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Umm... (while chuckling)

Quoted 3 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 1 line · Russell King - ARM Linux

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Umm... (while chuckling)

So chuckle all you want. This is one of the things we _do_ get right

Quoted 3 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

Quoted 2 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 1 line · Russell King - ARM Linux

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Quoted 2 lines

Quoted 1 line

Umm... (while chuckling)

So chuckle all you want. This is one of the things we _do_ get right

Make all the work for yourselves you desire.
I don't care how hard you work.

I only care about your latency to my patches,
which I noticed you didn't answer.

Quoted 4 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 1 line · Russell King - ARM Linux

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Umm... (while chuckling)

Yes. The reason being is you removed the 'Re:' from the subject line but still pressed "reply".

Quoted 4 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 1 line · Russell King - ARM Linux

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Umm... (while chuckling)

Yes. The reason being is you removed the 'Re:' from the subject line but still pressed "reply".

We have an etiquette item which discourages that - we have people who like to use the "reply" button to start a completely new and

So chuckle all you want. This is one of the things we _do_ get right to improve the overall quality for existing subscribers, and make the archives more searchable.

Quoted 4 lines · Joe Perches

Quoted 1 line · Russell King - ARM Linux

And... have your emails been held for moderation recently?

Umm... (while chuckling)

Yes. The reason being is you removed the 'Re:' from the subject line but still pressed "reply".

We have an etiquette item which discourages that - we have people who like to use the "reply" button to start a completely new and unrelated topic of conversation. So the mailing list catches this behaviour and holds it for moderation, so we don't end up with irrelevent sub-threads tagged on to existing threads in the archives (or even in our threaded mail readers.)

One common false positive to this rule is using 'git send-email' with a message ID as reference. There won't be a 'Re:' in that case.

These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them. The amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to continue to provide such a service to this community. When I pull them, I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.

I estimate that this will happen this evening. Really. Because I don't see this thread settling down.

Quoted 4 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them. The amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to continue to provide such a service to this community. When I pull them, I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.

Since there weren't many comments in this thread from the core ARM Linux developers, I find it a bit silly to get upset like this. But, well, in the end it's your decision and some people may find that moving to a non-subscribers list is a good thing (and may also save you and Erik some time). Others may find it was a bad decision, it's hard to say.

Quoted 2 lines · Daniel Mack

One common false positive to this rule is using 'git send-email' with a message ID as reference. There won't be a 'Re:' in that case.

Yes, and they are HELD FOR MODERATION so that a HUMAN can make a DECISION on whether to let them through. We could, alternatively, discard them outright. We think that discarding due to a rule matching is unacceptable though.

These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them. The amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to continue to provide such a service to this community. When I pull them, I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.

Someone else can provide and run the mailing lists.

I estimate that this will happen this evening. Really. Because I don't see this thread settling down.

These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them. The amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to continue to provide such a service to this community. When I pull them, I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.
Someone else can provide and run the mailing lists.
I estimate that this will happen this evening. Really. Because I don't see this thread settling down.

Quoted 7 lines · Russell King - ARM Linux

These lists are getting close to me just pulling the plug on them. The amount of crap flying around about them is getting too great for me to continue to provide such a service to this community. When I pull them, I'll pull *all* the linux-arm related lists.
Someone else can provide and run the mailing lists.
I estimate that this will happen this evening. Really. Because I don't see this thread settling down.

While I appreciate that this is possibly too little too late, for what it's worth I personally appreciate all the effort you put into the ARM-Linux lists, and I think it would be a great shame to let them turn into the free-for-all bunfight which we know will happen if you relinquish the control you hold.

Linux-ARM-Kernel is the only Linux-related mailing list I have left which isn't running on a host I have to whitelist through all of my spam-checking because the lists are so spam-friendly that if I try and spam-check them, I get kicked off for rejecting too much of the mail.

I dread to think what will happen to the quality of the code if the vendors are left to push whatever they like into the core. Heck, even the long-term subsystem or arch/mach maintainers sometimes need a push in the right direction, and I doubt that such information and impetus would make it to them if the lists were not well managed.

For my $0.02, I hope you find it in you to be able to continue managing the lists as they are, and I am sorry for not piping up a bit earlier.

Quoted 5 lines

Humans tend to reuse and improve the tools that work best. Your ARM based mail tool has caused some to do more work than they would like, so they would like to use a better tool.

So instead you'd like me to do more work by having to service peoples requests about how to subscribe and unsubscribe from a mailing list which I don't run?

I invented a tool for that. It's called "running my own mailing list."

Quoted 11 lines · Alan Cox

O> Let me make this clear, yet again. The lists are *not* subscriber only

Quoted 5 lines

lists. We do NOT reject non-subscriber posts for no reason what so ever (although it does seem to have happened, both Erik and myself both contend that we have never rejected a mailing intentionally without giving a reason - whether the original poster receives that reason is a function of how buggy mailman is.)

Does it matter one iota whether mailman is rejecting the posts or you are. It's a long standing nuisance. And if the software is that buggy why not move it to vger which works and has its own active maintainers which will free up your time ?

As I've already pointed out in previous threads, people believe that they should talk to me about ARM mailing lists. Proven, multiple times by multiple people.

Fact: These lists have _TWO_ admins. Fact: Everyone only talks to me about problems with these lists. Fact: they do not copy Erik.

Read that outdated FAQ you are posting to the list so often. Fact: it is From: you, and it mentions a lot of stuff but it does not tell us that Erik is the list admin.

But really what I find offensive [] is that you're attributing malice where there is none.

Quoted 1 line

I like that. Open lists are useful.

However, that is immaterial if no one is subscribed to it - in which case it acts as a black hole and a source of frustration for people.

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

Quoted 1 line · Pavel Machek

I like that. Open lists are useful.

However, that is immaterial if no one is subscribed to it - in which case it acts as a black hole and a source of frustration for people.

I haven't noticed a great rush of support for Joe's patch, which could mean that people here really aren't that bothered - maybe they just aren't "open list" zealots like some people seem to be.

For the other ARM MAINTAINERS entries (e.g. specific boards), it is up to the corresponding maintainers to add whatever lists they want, which may include linux-arm@vger.

Quoted 3 lines

For the other ARM MAINTAINERS entries (e.g. specific boards), it is up to the corresponding maintainers to add whatever lists they want, which may include linux-arm@vger.

Just to be clear (and my final email tonight) I don't have a problem with that, provided the corresponding maintainers do agree (and therefore provide their ack).

But to do it as a blanket "add linux-arm@vger to everything with linux-arm-kernel" is wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

List admin: http://lists.arm.linux.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel
FAQ:        http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/faq.php
Etiquette:  http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/etiquette.php

Let's not forget - as Pavel has yet again proven - if you have a problem with a mailing list, who do you talk to. All the list admins? Of course not! You email rmk and/or mailing lists directly.

Quoted 5 lines · Russell King

Quoted 3 lines · David John

I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say, a simple bug report.

If only it were as simple as that.

[]

Quoted 3 lines

I'm not willing to spend vast sums of money in
the legal domain to sort this issue out.
Neither am I willing to take a chance.

What chances are those?

Quoted 5 lines

And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside the EU were to run the list. And people would have to independently subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber list outside the EU.

I suspect a vger based ARM list would not require you to "run" it.

Perhaps you overestimate the value of the arm subscriber database as well as the work involved to subscribe to a list.

Adding a "click this to subscribe to the new list" to the mailing list trailer would work reasonably well.

Quoted 6 lines · David John

I think the basis of Pavel's complaint is that the ARM mailing list is difficult to work with for casual users who might want to forward say, a simple bug report.

If data protection laws prevent you from keeping an open list, can't you host the list at kernel.org or elsewhere?

If only it were as simple as that.

Basically, to properly resolve this I need a *UK* solicitor who is well versed in data protection issues to advise. Given that this is purely voluntary, I'm not willing to spend vast sums of money in the legal domain to sort this issue out.

Neither am I willing to take a chance.

And no, moving the list outside the EU domain doesn't relieve any of the lawful issues unless (as I understand the law) someone outside the EU were to run the list. And people would have to independently subscribe to it - I wouldn't be able to export the existing subscriber list outside the EU.

Now, people here can tell me I'm wrong, but they aren't in the legal profession... Would you get a gardener to fix your gas boiler, or would you get a qualified and registered gas engineer in?

Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.

Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be increased to lkml levels?

Quoted 5 lines · On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 13:31:04 +0200 Pavel Machek <[email protected]> wrote:

Actually I'm subscribed, but I still have far too many problems.

Due to the approval process, I don't think you'll ever have a spammer on lakml... can the mail size + #of people in to/cc list simply be increased to lkml levels?

Spammers indeed stand no chance on lakml, but that was not the main reason to make it a closed list.

Max mail size is on 100k. That should be enough, patches larger than that should have been broken up anyway. I just increased the

number of people in the CC list from 15 to 30 so that should resolve most of the recipients issues. When the CC list gets larger than that, it's usually a flamewar anyway ;-)