Kernel 2.5 Workshop RealVideo streams -- next time, please get better audio.
http://www.osdn.com/conferences/kernel/
Thanks to all responsible for getting these captures of the Kernel 2.5 Workshop prosentations put together.
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings. Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s) can be heard. This reduces the value of these recording substantially, since the comments, insights and give-and-take of the other kernel developers would help us get a much more complete understanding of the areas being presented -- try listening to Andy Grover's Power Management presentation and you'll see what I mean.
Quoted 3 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.
The problem is that nobody wants to wait for one of the microphones to go across the entire room before they can begin speaking, this is what was happening. Sometimes there was a dialogue going on between three people sitting at tables, there were 2 microphones to go around...
One solution I've seen sort of work is to have 2 standing fixed microphones in the isles, but this only really functions correctly for a Q&A type session after a presentation.
It does not work in a relaxed "people sit at tables and comment at arbitrary points in time during a talk" setting such as the kernel summit. Besides putting a microphone at every table (which isn't all that practical honestly) I can't come up with a solution.
Later,
David S. Miller
[email protected]
Quoted 11 lines · David S. Miller
Quoted 3 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.The problem is that nobody wants to wait for one of the microphones to go across the entire room before they can begin speaking, this is what was happening. Sometimes there was a dialogue going on between three people sitting at tables, there were 2 microphones to go around...
Quoted 8 lines
One solution I've seen sort of work is to have 2 standing fixed microphones in the isles, but this only really functions correctly for a Q&A type session after a presentation.
It does not work in a relaxed "people sit at tables and comment at arbitrary points in time during a talk" setting such as the kernel summit. Besides putting a microphone at every table (which isn't all that practical honestly) I can't come up with a solution.
I agree that this is another important issue. It's most important in these events that the flow and exchange of ideas proceed unhindered. I do believe there is a way to record the dialog without introducing significant impediments, though.
What usually is done these days, when a few groups of people need to hold a conference call, for example, is that a few omni-directional microphones are used (these are the sort of spaceship-looking things that get placed in the center of a large table around which the groups sit). There are drawbacks with this, in that, for a large group, there's signal loss if current speaker does not face the microphone. However, these microphones do a pretty good job of picking up voice audio in a 360 degree radius.
There would need to be some post-event sound mixing. For example, if you have ten tables, each with its own omni-directional table microphone, plus unidirectional microphones for the presenter(s), you'd need to mix the signals from the microphones or perhaps switch between the various microphone recordings and adjust for volume differences. You'd likely get the best recording from the table microphone a particular participant was sitting at. You'd also likely get much stronger signals from the presenter's microphone.
What say you all?
Cheers,
Miles
Quoted 3 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.
I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience microphone was put inside a Nerf ball. It could then be tossed to the audience member who wished to speak.
Signature · 2 lines
Randolph Bentson [email protected]
Quoted 7 lines · Randolph Bentson
Quoted 4 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.
Quoted 5 lines
I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience microphone was put inside a Nerf ball. It could then be tossed to the audience member who wished to speak.
That sounds more Linux-like *lol*
Signature · 5 lines
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Quoted 10 lines · Ben Ford
Quoted 7 lines · Randolph Bentson
Quoted 4 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.
Quoted 6 lines
Quoted 5 lines
I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience microphone was put inside a Nerf ball. It could then be tossed to the audience member who wished to speak.
That sounds more Linux-like *lol*
I can see it now.... Linus, go long!
D'oh! He dropped it! :-)
The sound effects from having folks forget to switch off the mic before throwing it could be pretty entertaining.
Seriously though, this would probably still be an impediment to the sort of stream-of-conciousness dialog that we'd like to have. Sometimes, there is a quick series of one or two sentence comments from several participants. With a "mike-in-a-ball" your discussion might turn into a sports event. Plus, personally, I am a crappy ball thrower. If many of you have my level of athletic prowess, there'd be a lot of time spent scrambling under tables and chairs.
Miles
Re: Kernel 2.5 Workshop RealVideo streams -- next time, please get
Quoted 7 lines · Miles Lane
Quoted 6 lines
Quoted 4 lines · Randolph Bentson
I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience microphone was put inside a Nerf ball. It could then be tossed to the audience member who wished to speak.
Quoted 6 lines
Seriously though, this would probably still be an impediment to the sort of stream-of-conciousness dialog that we'd like to have. Sometimes, there is a quick series of one or two sentence comments from several participants. With a "mike-in-a-ball" your discussion might turn into a sports event.
No, you just need a half dozen microphones. They get tossed back to assistants on a least-recently-used basis.
Quoted 4 lines
Plus, personally, I am a crappy ball thrower. If many of you have my level of athletic prowess, there'd be a lot of time spent scrambling under tables and chairs.
This is a reason to have athletic assitants, and another reason to have a half dozen microphones instead of just one.
Still, the post-conference mixing from dozens of overhead microphones looks best. It adds cost, setup time, and post-processing time, but is totally reliable and does not interfere with the conference at all.
If you wanted to get fancy, multiple overhead microphones ought to let you cancel any sort of background noise with a bit of 3d audio processing. Sneezes, coughs, footsteps, people falling out of their chairs... all processed out.
Quoted 10 lines · Randolph Bentson
Quoted 3 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience microphone was put inside a Nerf ball. It could then be tossed to the audience member who wished to speak.
Alternatively, you could hold your discussion on a classical music performance stage. They usually have about ten or twenty suspended microphones over the stage. Then, you'd just need to mix the audio.
Miles
Quoted 12 lines · Miles Lane
Quoted 10 lines · Randolph Bentson
Quoted 3 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience microphone was put inside a Nerf ball. It could then be tossed to the audience member who wished to speak.
Quoted 4 lines
Alternatively, you could hold your discussion on a classical music performance stage. They usually have about ten or twenty suspended microphones over the stage. Then, you'd just need to mix the audio.
As one of the guys who was passing the mike around, I am a fan of the directional mike. If you have ever used one of those, they are quite nice and I think would solve the problem.
Signature · 2 lines
--- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
Quoted 14 lines · Larry McVoy
Quoted 12 lines · Miles Lane
Quoted 10 lines · Randolph Bentson
Quoted 3 lines · Miles Lane
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings.
Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s)
can be heard.I've heard of conferences where a wireless audience microphone was put inside a Nerf ball. It could then be tossed to the audience member who wished to speak.
Quoted 8 lines
Quoted 4 lines
Alternatively, you could hold your discussion on a classical music performance stage. They usually have about ten or twenty suspended microphones over the stage. Then, you'd just need to mix the audio.
As one of the guys who was passing the mike around, I am a fan of the directional mike. If you have ever used one of those, they are quite nice and I think would solve the problem.
Are you talking about one of those "eavesdropper" parabolic microphones? Are you thinking of having someone on stage redirecting the microphone as each speaker starts talking? It could work well, but you'd either lose the first few words each person in the audience said or need to go to a "hand raising/acknowledgement" to create a pause during which the microphone could be redirected.
Miles
Quoted 8 lines
Are you talking about one of those "eavesdropper" parabolic microphones? Are you thinking of having someone on stage redirecting the microphone as each speaker starts talking? It could work well, but you'd either lose the first few words each person in the audience said or need to go to a "hand raising/acknowledgement" to create a pause during which the microphone could be redirected.
Yeah, but that is still way way way faster than walking across the room to hand someone a mike.
Signature · 2 lines
--- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
have a couple of these and you would be able to keep one trained on the most common speakers in any given discussion (then you only have the problem of more speakers then mikes, but short of putting enough mikes around to get the entire room you will always have this problem)
David Lang
Quoted 29 lines · Larry McVoy
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:56:26 -0700
From: Larry McVoy <[email protected]>
To: Miles Lane <[email protected]>
Cc: Larry McVoy <[email protected]>,
Randolph Bentson <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kernel 2.5 Workshop RealVideo streams -- next time,
please get better audio.Quoted 8 lines
Are you talking about one of those "eavesdropper" parabolic microphones? Are you thinking of having someone on stage redirecting the microphone as each speaker starts talking? It could work well, but you'd either lose the first few words each person in the audience said or need to go to a "hand raising/acknowledgement" to create a pause during which the microphone could be redirected.
Yeah, but that is still way way way faster than walking across the room to hand someone a mike.
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
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Quoted 10 lines · Larry McVoy
Quoted 9 lines
Are you talking about one of those "eavesdropper" parabolic microphones? Are you thinking of having someone on stage redirecting the microphone as each speaker starts talking? It could work well, but you'd either lose the first few words each person in the audience said or need to go to a "hand raising/acknowledgement" to create a pause during which the microphone could be redirected.
Quoted 2 lines
Yeah, but that is still way way way faster than walking across the room to hand someone a mike.
I like this idea quite a bit. It would probably not be terribly expensive to rent/buy the required equipment, it would be easy to use and would not be terribly disruptive to the preceedings.
I'm curious, didn't you find that those mikes are too directionally sensitive? I've noticed that the movement of the speaker by just an inch or two can cause major variations in signal reception (I've only tried that little plastic parabolic eavesdropping "toy" that was all the rage about two Christmasses ago -- there was one floating around my office).
Miles
Quoted 7 lines · Miles Lane
Quoted 1 line
hand someone a mike.
I like this idea quite a bit. It would probably not be terribly expensive to rent/buy the required equipment, it would be easy to use and would not be terribly disruptive to the preceedings.
Quoted 7 lines
I'm curious, didn't you find that those mikes are too directionally sensitive? I've noticed that the movement of the speaker by just an inch or two can cause major variations in signal reception (I've only tried that little plastic parabolic eavesdropping "toy" that was all the rage about two Christmasses ago -- there was one floating around my office).
Just to keep this on topic... the real question is what would be the best way to interface this sound system into the Linux kernel?
;o)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike A. Harris - Linux advocate - Free Software advocate
This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted 10 lines
Quoted 4 lines
I like this idea quite a bit. It would probably not be terribly expensive to rent/buy the required equipment, it would be easy to use and would not be terribly disruptive to the preceedings.
Just to keep this on topic... the real question is what would be the best way to interface this sound system into the Linux kernel?
;o)
Not a problem. :) Simply fit a machine with several ALSA-compatible soundcards with mic-level inputs and use it as the recording medium. Actually, I forget - do OSS-type soundcard drivers handle multiple cards sensibly too?
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Re: Kernel 2.5 Workshop RealVideo streams -- next time, please
Quoted 4 lines
Not a problem. :) Simply fit a machine with several ALSA-compatible soundcards with mic-level inputs and use it as the recording medium. Actually, I forget - do OSS-type soundcard drivers handle multiple cards sensibly too?
Yes. Have done since 2.2.
Re: Kernel 2.5 Workshop RealVideo streams -- next time, please getbetter audio.
In reply to Mike A. HarrisQuoted 18 lines · Mike A. Harris
Quoted 7 lines · Miles Lane
Quoted 1 line
hand someone a mike.
I like this idea quite a bit. It would probably not be terribly expensive to rent/buy the required equipment, it would be easy to use and would not be terribly disruptive to the preceedings.
Quoted 7 lines
I'm curious, didn't you find that those mikes are too directionally sensitive? I've noticed that the movement of the speaker by just an inch or two can cause major variations in signal reception (I've only tried that little plastic parabolic eavesdropping "toy" that was all the rage about two Christmasses ago -- there was one floating around my office).
Quoted 3 lines
Just to keep this on topic... the real question is what would be the best way to interface this sound system into the Linux kernel?
This is not the topic (I don't really care how the audio recordings get merged or how the final recording is delivered as RealVideo/RealAudio streams). The topic is "how do we get recordings of Linux-related discussions in the future that capture all the comments of the participants."
It would be great if we could get a good approach nailed down so that it could be used at Linux BOF discusssions and development team presentations in the future.
OT: It would be great to have a central repository for Linux- related audio/video streams. For example, it'd be great to get some of the LinuxTag, LinuxWorld, Comdex, CBIT and other presentations made available on the web. Perhaps even more valuable, from a development information dissemination standpoint, would be recordings of "birds of a feather" discussions.
Miles
Quoted 5 lines · David S. Miller
It does not work in a relaxed "people sit at tables and comment at arbitrary points in time during a talk" setting such as the kernel summit. Besides putting a microphone at every table (which isn't all that practical honestly) I can't come up with a solution.
I suspect that if we're going to do this again, having a microphone at each table is what we'd have to do, assuming that we can keep the numbers of people at the workshop down to 60-70 (which will be a *lot* harder next time, since everyone and his brother will want to show up, and will therefore pester, whine, and otherwise beg the workshop organizers to be included onto the invite list).
If we have a lot more people, we'll probably have to go to the two microphones in the aisle approach. But at that point a large part of the workshop will be destroyed; so hopefully we'll just be able to keep the numbers of people in the workshop to manageable number.
- Ted
There might be room in our educational mission for us the send someone with equipment to support the meeting like we do with the ietf, and nanog.
joelja
Quoted 27 lines · Theodore Tso
Quoted 5 lines · David S. Miller
It does not work in a relaxed "people sit at tables and comment at arbitrary points in time during a talk" setting such as the kernel summit. Besides putting a microphone at every table (which isn't all that practical honestly) I can't come up with a solution.
I suspect that if we're going to do this again, having a microphone at each table is what we'd have to do, assuming that we can keep the numbers of people at the workshop down to 60-70 (which will be a *lot* harder next time, since everyone and his brother will want to show up, and will therefore pester, whine, and otherwise beg the workshop organizers to be included onto the invite list).
If we have a lot more people, we'll probably have to go to the two microphones in the aisle approach. But at that point a large part of the workshop will be destroyed; so hopefully we'll just be able to keep the numbers of people in the workshop to manageable number.
- Ted
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Quoted 7 lines · Theodore Tso
Quoted 4 lines · David S. Miller
It does not work in a relaxed "people sit at tables and comment at arbitrary points in time during a talk" setting such as the kernel summit. Besides putting a microphone at every table (which isn't all that practical honestly) I can't come up with a solution.
Quoted 6 lines
I suspect that if we're going to do this again, having a microphone at each table is what we'd have to do, assuming that we can keep the numbers of people at the workshop down to 60-70 (which will be a *lot* harder next time, since everyone and his brother will want to show up, and will therefore pester, whine, and otherwise beg the workshop organizers to be included onto the invite list).
Nah, my brother does Java.
Being an outsider, I'm still trying to find out WTF happened on friday evening when NUMA was discussed. I can't find any video, audio, or even technical notes. This sucks; I'm writing support for NUMA hardware (it's not cache coherent) right now and I don't have any idea where things will be going.
Quoted 4 lines
If we have a lot more people, we'll probably have to go to the two microphones in the aisle approach. But at that point a large part of the workshop will be destroyed; so hopefully we'll just be able to keep the numbers of people in the workshop to manageable number.
You can have 90% of the people invited to one day only.
Quoted 5 lines
Being an outsider, I'm still trying to find out WTF happened on friday evening when NUMA was discussed. I can't find any video, audio, or even technical notes. This sucks; I'm writing support for NUMA hardware (it's not cache coherent) right now and I don't have any idea where things will be going.
Something like
View 1: (The SGI view)
NUMA should be implemented as a single kernel on a numa system. Andrea
has done some work on this (see his kernel.org patches), as have SGI.
View 2: (The McVoy view)
NUMA is best viewed as another misguided attempt to do DSM and we
should run a kernel on each DSM node and do page cache borrows between nodes.
Alan
Quoted 1 line · Albert D. Cahalan
support for NUMA hardware (it's not cache coherent) right now
btw, there are three kind of NUMA systems:
1) cc-numa first citizens (wildfire alpha, future chips)
2) cc-numa second citizens (origin2k)
3) non cache coherent numa machinesOn the first class numa citizens NUMA means "heuristics for higher performance". On those systems you don't need any NUMA change for correct operation of the kernel (besides the fact you may need to use discontigmem to boot the kernel if there can be huge physical holes in the physical layout of the ram but that is true also for any other non numa machine with big holes in the physical ram address space).
On the second and thrid class of NUMA systems NUMA means "required changes for correct operations of the system". difference between 1 and 2 is that category 2) needs also to put specialized PIO memory barriers to serialize the I/O across different nodes. So it "only" additionaly requires total auditing of the device drivers.
I think linux will need to optimize class 1 of systems and I assume SGI has the PIO memory barriers patches for the device drivers to support class 2 as well.
Nobody ever considered the non cache coherent numa support so far AFIK and I guess it will hardly end into mainline (personally I wouldn't be that excited to deal with that additional complexity ;). If you can tell, what system is it?
Andrea
Quoted 15 lines · Theodore Tso
Quoted 5 lines · David S. Miller
It does not work in a relaxed "people sit at tables and comment at arbitrary points in time during a talk" setting such as the kernel summit. Besides putting a microphone at every table (which isn't all that practical honestly) I can't come up with a solution.
I suspect that if we're going to do this again, having a microphone at each table is what we'd have to do, assuming that we can keep the numbers of people at the workshop down to 60-70 (which will be a *lot* harder next time, since everyone and his brother will want to show up, and will therefore pester, whine, and otherwise beg the workshop organizers to be included onto the invite list).
Quoted 4 lines
If we have a lot more people, we'll probably have to go to the two microphones in the aisle approach. But at that point a large part of the workshop will be destroyed; so hopefully we'll just be able to keep the numbers of people in the workshop to manageable number.
Well, another option would be to have workshops on a more frequent basis, target the workshops on fewer areas and restrict the invitees to those doing work in fairly closely related areas. This would allow us to foster the synergy of teamwork. The only obvious downside to this IMHO would be the loss of the contribution of from those working in dissimilar areas. This might be a significant loss, since sometimes a great solution to a problem will come from someone who is thinking "outside the box" of the current development team.
On the other hand, we could have the annual Kernel Workshop consist of the folks who were at this year summit and simply add other workshops that are more narrowly targetted.
Miles
Quoted 5 lines · Miles Lane
http://www.osdn.com/conferences/kernel/
Thanks to all responsible for getting these captures of the Kernel 2.5 Workshop prosentations put together.
Quoted 9 lines
There is one major shortcoming of the recordings. Usually, only the comments of the presenter(s) can be heard. This reduces the value of these recording substantially, since the comments, insights and give-and-take of the other kernel developers would help us get a much more complete understanding of the areas being presented -- try listening to Andy Grover's Power Management presentation and you'll see what I mean.
I actually managed to get almost all of it by simply pressing my ear against my speaker, and then pulling back quickly when the main speaker was talking.
So my question is, what would it take to get some automatic software volume correction going. This looks like it would be the easiest fix of all.
Eric
Quoted 3 lines
So my question is, what would it take to get some automatic software volume correction going. This looks like it would be the easiest fix of all.
Unfortunately its encoded in a proprietary format otherwise it would have been perhaps half an hours work to write an AGC filter for the data.
Alan
So grab and install dsproxy (http://freshmeat.net/projects/dsproxy/), and capture the output. Than feed to e.g. XMMS which already has an AGC plugin.
t
Quoted 14 lines · Alan Cox
Quoted 3 lines
So my question is, what would it take to get some automatic software volume correction going. This looks like it would be the easiest fix of all.
Unfortunately its encoded in a proprietary format otherwise it would have been perhaps half an hours work to write an AGC filter for the data.
Alan
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