Nvidia and its choice to read the GPL "differently"
A rather misguided person wrote this:
This is the Linux-kernel list. It deals with Linux-kernel issues. It does not deal with your continual attempt to claim some sort of credit for the work of thousands.
He wants to give all the credit for the whole system to just one person. I'm asking people to give a group of thousands of people credit *also*. In which of these two alternatives does one person claim credit for the work of thousands? The "Linux" alternative does that. If he applied his own criterion even-handedly to these two alternatives, he would call the system "GNU/Linux". But he doesn't apply it even-handedly; he has led himself to apply a double standard.
Why does an intelligent person do this? He is clinging to the idea that "Linux" is the right name for the system, and that requires distorting something. Just as some people insist the Earth is flat, or that astrology makes valid predictions, others believe that the whole system is Linux. All of them have to find a way to deny or ignore the facts in order to go on believing what they believe.
If you call the system "Linux", you are misinforming other people:
teaching them a false picture of the system's history. Some of them may become so attached to the false picture that it distorts their thinking. If you call it "GNU/Linux", this won't happen.
Quoted 22 lines · Richard Stallman
A rather misguided person wrote this:
This is the Linux-kernel list. It deals with Linux-kernel issues. It does not deal with your continual attempt to claim some sort of credit for the work of thousands.
He wants to give all the credit for the whole system to just one person. I'm asking people to give a group of thousands of people credit *also*. In which of these two alternatives does one person claim credit for the work of thousands? The "Linux" alternative does that. If he applied his own criterion even-handedly to these two alternatives, he would call the system "GNU/Linux". But he doesn't apply it even-handedly; he has led himself to apply a double standard.
Why does an intelligent person do this? He is clinging to the idea that "Linux" is the right name for the system, and that requires distorting something. Just as some people insist the Earth is flat, or that astrology makes valid predictions, others believe that the whole system is Linux. All of them have to find a way to deny or ignore the facts in order to go on believing what they believe.
Quoted 4 lines
If you call the system "Linux", you are misinforming other people:
teaching them a false picture of the system's history. Some of them may become so attached to the false picture that it distorts their thinking. If you call it "GNU/Linux", this won't happen.
With all due respect Sir, do not address such to me. You know me not.
-Mike
Quoted 4 lines · Richard Stallman
If you call the system "Linux", you are misinforming other people:
teaching them a false picture of the system's history. Some of them may become so attached to the false picture that it distorts their thinking. If you call it "GNU/Linux", this won't happen.
The term Linux for the whole system might be inaccurate, but it's what is used and as long as the owner of the name Linux (Linus) doesn't complain that's fine. Calling it GNU/Linux is 1984-style changing of history, though.
All so-called Linux distributions were created from lots of different components. Many, often important, components came from the GNU project, other from BSD NET/2 other were written from scratch, etc.. But these collection of packages had had exactly _zero_ connection to the FSF and the GNU project except reusing some components from the GNU project.
And no, Linux distributions weren't the only people doing that. Look at the number of GNU components in say BSDI where they combined it with propritary software.
I'd also like to add the the FSF didn't give a shit for Linux until it got popular enough to ride on the bandwaggon.
Quoted 2 lines
I'd also like to add the the FSF didn't give a shit for Linux until it got popular enough to ride on the bandwaggon.
Amen, brother.
Signature · 2 lines
--- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
Hi RMS,
Saw you here and thought I'd remind you. I got under your skin quite a few years back cos I wrote this perl-based cscope which I released for free - with a modified BSD licence stating that no one in pakistan or no person of pakistani nationality could use it and that this licence could not be modified to allow pakis to use it. You might ask why I did that ? Well, I am an Indian and I thought I'd just needle some pakis cos they are such nincompoops. Anyways, 9/11 proved me right that pakis (+ saudis) suck ass big time.
Getting back to open-licence software, if you hadn't been such a nitpicking ideologue, the free s/w world would have had a cscope at least 2 years earlier than it did. I gave you my version of a "free" licence, and you didn't like it one bit! That was the OTHER reason I did it. To prove a point to you, that EVEN in a Free software world, there might be some other price to be paid.
A full-freedom software world might turn out to be a grey tasteless odourless flavourless communist world. Even free s/w needs competition to keep it on its toes, and money is the best damned motivation for normal people! While everyone, including me, appreciates what you've achieved in the past, your intransigence over your untenable extreme views on software freedom is the primary reason why you are losing ground everyday with your own supporters. Think about it.
Ranjeet Shetye
Quoted 23 lines
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christoph Hellwig
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:28 PM
To: Richard Stallman
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: Nvidia and its choice to read the GPL "differently"Quoted 2 lines · Richard Stallman
If you call the system "Linux", you are misinforming other people:
teaching them a false picture of the system's history.Some of them
Quoted 2 lines
may become so attached to the false picture that it distorts their thinking. If you call it "GNU/Linux", this won't happen.
The term Linux for the whole system might be inaccurate, but it's what is used and as long as the owner of the name Linux (Linus) doesn't complain that's fine. Calling it GNU/Linux is 1984-style changing of history, though.
Quoted 6 lines · Ranjeet Shetye
I thought I'd just needle some pakis cos they
are such nincompoops.your intransigence over your untenable extreme
views
Just a bit of editing that I couldn't resist, thought these two bits went together so well.
Ranjeet, meet my kill file; kill file, this is Ranjeet. Before you go, it is humbling to live one's life thinking that for every person you think is an asshole, there are at least 2 that think you are.
More if you post it to an ML ;-)
Cool. Since you think I am wrong and stubborn and intransigent about pakis, I'd gladly pay a two way fare for your wife or daughter to travel/stay alone in the pro-Taliban areas of northern pak. Amazing how quickly an offer like that shuts up all the politically-correct folks.
The real point of my email was that almost everyone has a slightly differing viewpoint of how the real world AND the software world should be arranged. I think pakis suck and you don't. Fine.
RMS's intransigence is hurting the open source movement at a time when his past leadership shows how much he can help. A little flexibility on his part would be a tremendous boost.
Ranjeet Shetye
Quoted 29 lines
-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Dodd [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 2:15 PM
To: Ranjeet Shetye
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: [Way OT]Re: Nvidia and its choice to read the GPL "differently"Quoted 6 lines · Ranjeet Shetye
I thought I'd just needle some pakis cos they
are such nincompoops.your intransigence over your untenable extreme
viewsJust a bit of editing that I couldn't resist, thought these two bits went together so well.
Ranjeet, meet my kill file; kill file, this is Ranjeet. Before you go,
it is humbling to live one's life thinking that for every person you think is an asshole, there are at least 2 that think you are.More if you post it to an ML ;-)
Quoted 11 lines · Ranjeet Shetye
Hi RMS,
Saw you here and thought I'd remind you. I got under your skin quite a few years back cos I wrote this perl-based cscope which I released for free - with a modified BSD licence stating that no one in pakistan or no person of pakistani nationality could use it and that this licence could not be modified to allow pakis to use it. You might ask why I did that ? Well, I am an Indian and I thought I'd just needle some pakis cos they are such nincompoops. Anyways, 9/11 proved me right that pakis (+ saudis) suck ass big time.
Please reread your last sentence. An isolated event caused by the wills and actions of a limited group (terrorists, terrorist backers) amongst a larger group (pakistanese people as a whole including children that don't even know the meaning of the word terrorist) is definitely nowhere near a proof of something concerning the larger group. Stating otherwise to promote segregation is pure racism.
Quoted 6 lines
Getting back to open-licence software, if you hadn't been such a nitpicking ideologue, the free s/w world would have had a cscope at least 2 years earlier than it did. I gave you my version of a "free" licence, and you didn't like it one bit!
So do I if I understand the following correctly. You could call it narrow-sighted but I'm very reluctent to increase the market share (and by that overall influence) of software excluding people for no other reason that their nationality. Segregating groups of people nearly always help sustain violence between people. Please verify this statement on past and current conflicts.
Quoted 8 lines
That was the OTHER reason I did
it. To prove a point to you, that EVEN in a Free software world, there might be some other price to be paid.A full-freedom software world might turn out to be a grey tasteless odourless flavourless communist world.
As long as proprietary software is not made unlawful where's the problem ?
You may link full-freesoftware inclination with communism if proprietary software was forbiden (and competition between free software projects is proved to be flawed) but I've never seen Richard state something like this. If I missed something feel free to point me where to look.
Free software evolves in a different way than proprietary software. This is true that most innovative products come with proprietary licenses now. But I'm not sure this fact comes from the license differences.
Free software and proprietary software don't yet play on an even field. There are huge inertial effects slowing Free Software market penetration now. When the field will be even and some time will have passed we'll know what places the two kinds will have and if the proprietary one really lies in "innovative products" land. Until then, enjoy the ride...
Quoted 4 lines
Even free s/w needs competition
to keep it on its toes, and money is the best damned motivation for normal people!
Depends on the amount of cash you have in the bank and your income. If your current situation suits you, more won't motivate you as much as something you desire and money can't buy (and there's a lot of this kind out there). What motivates me the most now (that the cash comes in regularly) is the ability to learn and interact with various people. I've not yet had enough of both. Most people spend their whole life pursuing various ideals, relatively few want to be the richest person on Earth...
Quoted 6 lines
While everyone, including me, appreciates what you've achieved in the past, your intransigence over your untenable extreme views on software freedom is the primary reason why you are losing ground everyday with your own supporters. Think about it.
Richard is an idealist. He can be annoying when you have your own feet on the ground but setting your goals too high isn't a bad motivation for making yourself better (unless you become an extremist of course)...
To come back on the Nvidia subject :
Considering the top performance mainstream 3D market now (ATI vs Nvidia), seeing that:
- both ATI and Nvidia have efficient proprietary drivers for their latest products (ATI ones are young and may still have problems I've not heard of yet),
- at least ATI 8500 cards have an efficient OSS driver in the works indicating ATI didn't make hiding *all* specs their internal policy.
Nvidia won't be an option for me and for every people that rely on my advices unless they open their specs or the market reverts back to a Nvidia monopol.
For the record, SiS lost directly at least tens and maybe hundreds of chipset sells when I was forced to tell potential customers contacting me directly that racks full of 645DX based systems might have to use PIO modes for all IDE transfers until SiS moved to help on sis5513.c ... Since then every other potential customer was directed to appropriate kernel versions or kindly provided patches for their exotic patched-kernel configurations (some don't even know how lucky they are that I love to study new stuff)...
Remember : the fittest survives...
LB.
Quoted 1 line · Christoph Hellwig
Calling it GNU/Linux is 1984-style changing of history, though.
Yeah, the GNU project was started in 1984.
Signature · 2 lines
Måns Rullgård [email protected]
The term Linux for the whole system might be inaccurate, but it's what is used and as long as the owner of the name Linux (Linus) doesn't complain that's fine. Calling it GNU/Linux is 1984-style changing of history, though.
The name GNU/Linux reflects the system's real history; the name Linux teaches a mistaken picture that many people believe is true. Please see http://www.gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html for the history.
Let's look deeper, at the criterion you've appealed to. Essentially you've said it's ok to give credit for A's work to B if B doesn't object. In effect, that avoids the whole issue of unfairness.
But these
collection of packages had had exactly _zero_ connection to the FSF and the GNU project except reusing some components from the GNU project.
"Some components" is an understatement--they were numerous. But let's look beyond that. The reason that these components fit in with other packages, such as X11, TeX, and BSD network utilities, is that we designed them to fit together. Our project was to build a complete operating system, so when we developed components, we had that purpose in mind. GNU/Linux distributions, at the root, are the result of our project to make a free operating system.
Watch 'Revolution OS' for more rants.
I did. I saw a lot of rants.
I have been using LINUX or the LINUX KERNEL for a long time, probable since 1993ish
I like LINUX...
but this buisness of the 'system' being the utilities I find hard to swallow.
I appreciate the work of BOTH Linux Torvals AND Richard Stallman without either of these people, we would not have what we have. but can we just, get along at least?
there is more than enough room for glory here.
Quoted 27 lines · Richard Stallman
A rather misguided person wrote this:
This is the Linux-kernel list. It deals with Linux-kernel issues. It does not deal with your continual attempt to claim some sort of credit for the work of thousands.
He wants to give all the credit for the whole system to just one person. I'm asking people to give a group of thousands of people credit *also*. In which of these two alternatives does one person claim credit for the work of thousands? The "Linux" alternative does that. If he applied his own criterion even-handedly to these two alternatives, he would call the system "GNU/Linux". But he doesn't apply it even-handedly; he has led himself to apply a double standard.
Why does an intelligent person do this? He is clinging to the idea that "Linux" is the right name for the system, and that requires distorting something. Just as some people insist the Earth is flat, or that astrology makes valid predictions, others believe that the whole system is Linux. All of them have to find a way to deny or ignore the facts in order to go on believing what they believe.
If you call the system "Linux", you are misinforming other people:
teaching them a false picture of the system's history. Some of them may become so attached to the false picture that it distorts their thinking. If you call it "GNU/Linux", this won't happen.
Quoted 5 lines
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File: Mark Rutherford.ASC
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