dvb-ttpci maintainer
Hi,
due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot) there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak up now. The sooner the better.
Oliver
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Quoted 6 lines
due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot) there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak up now. The sooner the better.
ah, it's very pity :(
will you stay with VDR project ?
Goga
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Quoted 7 lines · Goga777 wrote:
Quoted 2 lines · Oliver Endriss
So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak up now. The sooner the better.
ah, it's very pity :(
will you stay with VDR project ?
Sure.
Oliver
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Quoted 7 lines · Oliver Endriss
Hi,
due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot) there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak up now. The sooner the better.
I'm not the only person who will hate to see you leave! Many people are disgusted by this stunt they pulled and while your absence will be a great loss to the linux dvb community, I understand & accept your position on it. Unfortunately the politics, backstabbing, and dirty tactics has been driving away some very good people & assets away. I can only hope that some day people will be put in charge who are unbiased and don't let their personal feelings interfere with what's best for the community.
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Am Mittwoch, den 24.09.2008, 19:22 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
Quoted 10 lines
Hi,
due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot) there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak up now. The sooner the better.
Oliver
Oliver,
you and Manu still stand for dvb with highest respect from _all_ I know about.
And for all I know else, maybe I know nothing, this was for sure not a plot.
Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same time can create/propose some facts.
If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.
For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.
Think it over.
Hermann
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This whole issue seems to be a classical case of tension during a cathedral to bazar development style project transition.
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Le 24.09.2008 21:40:05, Torgeir Veimo a écrit :
Quoted 2 lines
This whole issue seems to be a classical case of tension during a cathedral to bazar development style project transition.
Wouldn't this transitional state just be called a mess ;-) OK just trying to make some fun out of this, I mean this is supposed to be our spare time hobby so passion is OK but people have to sometimes take a deep breath and remember that is what it should: spare time FUN! ;-)
Bye
Manu
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Am Mittwoch, den 24.09.2008, 21:45 -0400 schrieb manu:
Quoted 11 lines · Torgeir Veimo
Quoted 2 lines
This whole issue seems to be a classical case of tension during a cathedral to bazar development style project transition.
Wouldn't this transitional state just be called a mess ;-) OK just trying to make some fun out of this, I mean this is supposed to be our spare time hobby so passion is OK but people have to sometimes take a deep breath and remember that is what it should: spare time FUN! ;-)
Bye
Manu
Yes :)
But others deal with NDAs and have more details on linux already for latest chip revisions than some major OEM might have on m$ smashing against the shores with the first generations ...
This is what however 100% counts for Manu and I do not deny it.
But within that transitional kind of stuff we must live ...
There is no other, also not for the others ;)
Hermann
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Quoted 12 lines · hermann pitton
Am Mittwoch, den 24.09.2008, 19:22 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
Quoted 7 lines
Hi,
due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot) there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak up now. The sooner the better.
Oliver,
Quoted 8 lines
you and Manu still stand for dvb with highest respect from _all_ I know about.
And for all I know else, maybe I know nothing, this was for sure not a plot.
Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same time can create/propose some facts.
No. They can discuss/propose anything they like, but 8 people don't have any right to make decisions. (This is why I call it a plot.)
There are basic democratic rules which must be followed in a community:
(1) Make a proposal
(2) Discuss the proposal
(3) Finally, _after_ the discussion: A poll to find a decision.
Quoted 2 lines
...
Think it over.
Well, I had enough time to think about it...
Oliver
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Hi,
Quoted 3 lines · Oliver Endriss
There are basic democratic rules which must be followed in a community:
(1) Make a proposal
Yes We have multiproto, since 2006.
Quoted 1 line
(2) Discuss the proposal
Was done since 2006
Quoted 1 line
(3) Finally, _after_ the discussion: A poll to find a decision.
Great thing. Why was multiproto not merged after your code review november 2007????
I thing Manu wanted to do the s2 stuff himself and did not accept any community help.
Yes I read most of the old mails from last year.
In most cases Manu wrote that multiproto is not ready. The fact is, that many people are using (not ready multiproto stuff) since two years.
The basic democratic rules should integrate the community and not only two multiproto developers.
Any way, my compromise for this problem is:
Manu Abraham and Steven Toth should work on one of the API's (together) and then decide which is the better solution for the new upcoming standards!
The current situation is not acceptable for endusers / other developers!!!!
Please don't stop your great work on ttpci Oliver. Regards
Halim
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Quoted 13 lines · Halim Sahin
Hi,
Quoted 3 lines · Oliver Endriss
There are basic democratic rules which must be followed in a community:
(1) Make a proposal
Yes We have multiproto, since 2006.
Quoted 1 line
(2) Discuss the proposal
Was done since 2006
Quoted 7 lines
Quoted 1 line
(3) Finally, _after_ the discussion: A poll to find a decision.
Great thing. Why was multiproto not merged after your code review november 2007????
I thing Manu wanted to do the s2 stuff himself and did not accept any community help.
http://lwn.net/Articles/297301/
API and core related patches: 31 + 1 patches, total 32 in all.
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/manu/dvb_patches/
The people who contributed some way or the other (in the final stages):
on the API changes alone. (Not mentioning about the people who initially provided many comments.)
Marco Schluessler <[email protected]>
Arvo Jarve <[email protected]>
Reinhard Nissl <[email protected]>
Oliver Endriss <[email protected]>
Anssi Hannula <[email protected]>
These folks on a whole, contributed to ~14 of the patches.
Quoted 4 lines
Yes I read most of the old mails from last year.
In most cases Manu wrote that multiproto is not ready. The fact is, that many people are using (not ready multiproto stuff) since two years.
After the code review, it was left for testing. Thanks to the VDR community/Klaus for providing support for the same, so it could be tested in real life.
As you can see quite some of the changes came during the test phase, as you can see from the timestamps in the multiproto tree.
Regards,
Manu
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Hi,
Quoted 1 line · Manu Abraham
Please read this:
http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25.
We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.
I respect your work and your technical knowledge about dvb standards etc.
Maybe your multiproto is more complete than the s2 one (I don't know).
@All: Please stop this and coose one api, port the drivers and try to work together on the dvb Stuff.
Currently all people who wants to use dvb under linux is frustrated by this.
Just my 2 Cents.
Halim
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Quoted 10 lines · Halim Sahin
Hi,
Quoted 1 line · Manu Abraham
Please read this:
http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25. We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.
As i wrote, fixes came in and had to be fixed. You can see the commit history here:
http://jusst.de/hg/multiproto/shortlog
In between, i went for vacation due to my marriage. During that period i had little access, but did whatever possible to get feedback/patches in there, during whatever time and access i had.
Regards,
Manu
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Hi,
Quoted 8 lines · Manu Abraham
Quoted 7 lines · Halim Sahin
Hi,
Quoted 1 line · Manu Abraham
Please read this:
Quoted 8 lines
Quoted 3 lines
http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25. We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.As i wrote, fixes came in and had to be fixed. You can see the commit history here:
Right
Quoted 3 lines
In between, i went for vacation due to my marriage. During that period i had little access, but did whatever possible to get feedback/patches in there, during whatever time and access i had.
During your vacation somebody else could ad patches if you wanted to work with other developers.
This could only happen if you have your code under linuxtv.org and or merged it completely to v4l-dvb!
You are the maintainer of multiproto and
So nobody could work on it in your absence time!
Sorry this sounds not ok to me.
Anyway the problem is nobody should leave linuxtv.org project. We should now stop this and go on.
Please !!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your great work!
Halim
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Quoted 18 lines · Halim Sahin
Hi,
Quoted 8 lines · Manu Abraham
Quoted 7 lines · Halim Sahin
Hi,
Quoted 1 line · Manu Abraham
Please read this:
Quoted 7 lines
Quoted 3 lines
http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25. We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.As i wrote, fixes came in and had to be fixed. You can see the commit history here:
Quoted 8 lines
Right
Quoted 3 lines
In between, i went for vacation due to my marriage. During that period i had little access, but did whatever possible to get feedback/patches in there, during whatever time and access i had.
During your vacation somebody else could ad patches if you wanted to work with other developers.
If you see the logs, the last fix changeset 9039 was added while i was away. Anyone can add patches to the tree, just that i need to pull back the changes from that person.
For example: while i was away, somebody else did a clone of the same tree and added the patches.
Quoted 2 lines
This could only happen if you have your code under linuxtv.org and or merged it completely to v4l-dvb!
There are 2 development models, a centralized style (CVS/SVN etc) and a distributed style (mercurial/git etc). The centralized model, offers a CVS tree or a SVN tree to which multiple people have commit access to.
This was how the old DVB and dvb-kernel CVS trees worked. But this centralized development model was phased out quite long back, in favour of a distributed model.
The distributed development model works the same from any place. Person A makes the changes to his local tree and those changes can be pulled in to the working repository.
Quoted 2 lines
You are the maintainer of multiproto and
So nobody could work on it in your absence time!
As i pointed out just above, somebody else did a clone of the tree and added in some changes that people sent to the ML. I can pull in those changes as what is applicable from that tree. This is how distributed development works.
Quoted 1 line
Sorry this sounds not ok to me.
I don't have any problem in using whatever SCM, but it makes it a little bit easier for the user to have some similarities between development trees. Maybe if more people are for a centralized repository, then people should voice concern as to change the SCM. This has nothing to do with me.
Quoted 4 lines
Anyway the problem is nobody should leave linuxtv.org project. We should now stop this and go on.
Please !!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your great work!
Regards,
Manu
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Quoted 2 lines · hermann pitton
Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same time can create/propose some facts.
IMO decisions must be made where the community is, i.e. on the mailing list. Not at a conference, no matter whether it is at one end of the world or on the dark side of the moon. ;-(
To make it absolutely clear:
I did not leave _because_ S2API was selected.
I left because it was done _this_way_.
Good for those, who are fine with these methods. I am not.
Quoted 3 lines
If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.
I consider flame wars ridiculous. I did not participate, and I will not participate in the future.
I believe that I know very well what is going on. (During more than 30 years in software development I have seen all kinds of problems. I know how people react and why things happen.)
Quoted 3 lines
For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.
Think it over.
Unlikely. I made this decision after sleeping over it for a few days. Now I feel much better.
Oliver
Signature · 8 lines
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Am Freitag, den 26.09.2008, 17:14 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
Quoted 8 lines
Quoted 2 lines · hermann pitton
Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same time can create/propose some facts.
IMO decisions must be made where the community is, i.e. on the mailing list. Not at a conference, no matter whether it is at one end of the world or on the dark side of the moon. ;-(
Quoted 5 lines
To make it absolutely clear:
I did not leave _because_ S2API was selected.
I left because it was done _this_way_.Good for those, who are fine with these methods. I am not.
What the others should have done previously?
They could only wait.
What should Mauro have done better?
Say, after Manu's pull request suddenly appeared, thanks, I merge it now over night and forget about all efforts others did.
Quoted 11 lines
Quoted 3 lines
If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.
I consider flame wars ridiculous. I did not participate, and I will not participate in the future.
I believe that I know very well what is going on. (During more than 30 years in software development I have seen all kinds of problems. I know how people react and why things happen.)
Quoted 9 lines
Quoted 3 lines
For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.
Think it over.
Unlikely. I made this decision after sleeping over it for a few days. Now I feel much better.
Oliver
You are the most trusted guy on linux-dvb for me.
Markus should have accept your help instead giving Mauro an ultimatum to merge his stuff within the next 24 hours and we would have one problem less.
Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it as well.
I'm open for everything fair to find a solution.
Hermann
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Quoted 2 lines · hermann pitton
Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it as well.
Why do you keep insisting I am Uwe? I am not so stop confusing me with someone else. As you can see here, I've been registered on this list since March 23, 2006.
=====
from [email protected]
to [email protected]
date Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 5:10 PM
subject Welcome to the "linux-dvb" mailing list (Digest mode)
mailing list linux-dvb.linuxtv.org Filter messages from this mailing list
mailed-by linuxtv.org
=====
So you continue to try to tell people I am someone else, said that I have threatened you which I certainly have NOT. Anyone can easily search ALL my posts here since I first joined and see for themselves I have clearly never done such a thing.
Why you continue making up these lies is beyond me but there's no doubt you are making a complete idiot of yourself by doing it and I doubt anyone with a brain in their head believes such ridiculous nonsense.
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Am Freitag, den 26.09.2008, 12:10 -0700 schrieb VDR User:
Quoted 8 lines
Quoted 2 lines · hermann pitton
Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it as well.
Why do you keep insisting I am Uwe? I am not so stop confusing me with someone else. As you can see here, I've been registered on this list since March 23, 2006.
Such guys like a/b/c/d/e/F*
We have no single patch from Derek. Shut up.
Quoted 14 lines
=====
from [email protected]
to [email protected]
date Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 5:10 PM
subject Welcome to the "linux-dvb" mailing list (Digest mode)
mailing list linux-dvb.linuxtv.org Filter messages from this mailing list
mailed-by linuxtv.org
=====So you continue to try to tell people I am someone else, said that I have threatened you which I certainly have NOT. Anyone can easily search ALL my posts here since I first joined and see for themselves I have clearly never done such a thing.
Quoted 4 lines
Why you continue making up these lies is beyond me but there's no doubt you are making a complete idiot of yourself by doing it and I doubt anyone with a brain in their head believes such ridiculous nonsense.
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Quoted 43 lines · hermann pitton
Am Freitag, den 26.09.2008, 17:14 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
Quoted 8 lines
Quoted 2 lines · hermann pitton
Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same time can create/propose some facts.
IMO decisions must be made where the community is, i.e. on the mailing list. Not at a conference, no matter whether it is at one end of the world or on the dark side of the moon. ;-(
Quoted 5 lines
To make it absolutely clear:
I did not leave _because_ S2API was selected.
I left because it was done _this_way_.Good for those, who are fine with these methods. I am not.
What the others should have done previously?
They could only wait.
What should Mauro have done better?
Say, after Manu's pull request suddenly appeared, thanks, I merge it now over night and forget about all efforts others did.
Quoted 18 lines
Quoted 3 lines
If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.
I consider flame wars ridiculous. I did not participate, and I will not participate in the future.
I believe that I know very well what is going on. (During more than 30 years in software development I have seen all kinds of problems. I know how people react and why things happen.)
Quoted 3 lines
For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.
Think it over.
Unlikely. I made this decision after sleeping over it for a few days. Now I feel much better.
Quoted 9 lines
Quoted 2 lines
Oliver
You are the most trusted guy on linux-dvb for me.
Markus should have accept your help instead giving Mauro an ultimatum to merge his stuff within the next 24 hours and we would have one problem less.
Hermann,
I really have to write that it was a good decision to stay away from my code previously.
Not because I didn't follow some suggestions which seemed to be ridiculous to me (and due
general lack of knowledge others and I had), it's because the code was not manufacturer supported
at that time.
The supported code which redesigned alot parts of the old driver are improved alot and those
changes were also influenced by business customers who back then thought "we could use that work
since it states out it supports xyz". Those business customers did in depth testing of their scenarios
and requirements and submitted valuable bugreports and or even patches (eg VBI support, signal strength
improvements due wrong firmwares -or even wrong register settings, mode switchover testing etc.)
I am not at all angry at anyone denying to merge the code around a year ago since the whole situation
changed, overall the bad communication back then which definitely was not driven by any community
rather than personalities just resulted in that overall bad atmosphere. I think all that is far away now
and many things changed to a positive result for endusers in terms of code quality now.
There are still some outstanding points on the list, in order to not break other devices it requires alot
testing. It's being worked on I can write. Looking at the work which has been done at Xceive even their
supplied code changed due the firmware upgrades and we supported them in order to fix some smaller
bugs too.
Due the whole development I also have to write that I have alot respect of what the Empia
windows developer is and was doing in order to support all those possible device configurations it's a
very complicated task, and he's also on it fulltime for some good reason.
best regards,
Markus
Quoted 5 lines
Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it as well.
I'm open for everything fair to find a solution.
Quoted 9 lines
Hermann
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Quoted 8 lines · Oliver Endriss
Hi,
due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot) there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak up now. The sooner the better.
Hi Oliver,
please also comment the other thread (DVB API improvements) not only Mauro who has the wheel in his hands
is looking at it now.
Markus
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Quoted 1 line · Oliver Endriss
...
I would appreciate if people would stop the flame wars - at least in this thread.
It was not my objective to start another thread which is worth to be redirected to /dev/null.
Oliver
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