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Announcement: wiki merger and some loose ends

DISCUSSION CityK 6 participants 11 messages Oct 27, 2008 – Jan 2, 2009 Media (V4L/DVB)

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CityK

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#0 lore raw

Hi folks,

Three items of interest:

1) I've started the merger of the V4L and DVB wikis. I posted an announcement on the main page of both.

Offhand, I can't remember what the exact licensing issue was (no longer have emails and couldn't find the post discussing this on the m/l's in a cursory search), so that part of the announcement I posted is a little lacking in description. Hopefully someone else can recall or fill in the details of the legal mumbo-jumbo. Personally, the issue is moot to me. And lastly, I'm going to pre-emptively state that I'm not at all interested in any sort of dialogue with those who might be so inclined to try to turn this issue into an episode of political bureaucratic zealotry.

If anyone else can improve upon the announcement, or think of other things that might be important to address, then by all means please do so.

Issues I've run into so far are:
- I couldn't create a new namespace in the Linuxtv wiki ... seems to me, IIRC, that I successfully tested doing this previously, so I'm not sure why it didn't work today
- images don't export/import properly ... going to have to figure something out about that one
- unlike articles in the "main" namespace of the wikis, there doesn't seem to be a way to rename images ... need some sort of file management feature, as a number of the images are poorly named.

2) In a related issue regarding the wiki(s), and one for which I have reached inquiries before, I will post Devin's questions to me and try to provide an answer:

Quoted 21 lines · Devin Heitmueller

Hello there,

Thanks for posting to the list so I could reach out to you.

I wanted to ask you about some deletes you performed on the linux-dvb wiki, with the only comment being "redundant":

# 23:09, 24 August 2008 CityK (Talk | contribs) deleted "Hvr 950" ‎ (redundant)
# 23:09, 24 August 2008 CityK (Talk | contribs) deleted "Hvr950" ‎ (redundant)
# 23:08, 24 August 2008 CityK (Talk | contribs) deleted "Hvr-950" ‎ (redundant)

These were actually intentionally created as redirect pages so that searches would properly send user to the correct page. Both "hvr" and "950" are too short for the mediawiki indexing engine. This is a common practice in mediawiki.

In fact, without these redirects I couldn't find *anything* I could put into the search box that would result in pointing the user to the HVR-950 page. The only way to get there was to go through the various pages ATSC->ATSC USB Devices.

Quoted 8 lines

If you have a suggestion as to how else to deal with this issue related to search, I am more willing to listen.

Regards,

Devin

Hi Devin,

First off, thanks for all the work you have done in the wiki, as it doesn't go unnoticed. To address your email:

I certainly understand that those pages were intentionally created. The general reasoning for my removing them can be found on my user page
(http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/User:CityK) under the "here's what I propose" and "User Sign up /Login Subpage" sections.
Specifically: :

"Formalize entries

* this includes proper article naming .... more then slightly pedantic, but necessary (think libraries -- they don't just throw things on shelves)"

and

"As the wiki grows, it takes an increasing amount of effort and discipline to keep it from quickly turning into a tangled mess. So it's up to each of us to make sure the information submitted is easy for everybody to find and access.

If you make a contribution and later find that your submission has been edited or moved to another area of the wiki, please don't feel offended. Everyone understands and appreciates the time and efforts you took, but bear in mind that a factual and well-organized resource for everyone interested in analog or digital TV is the ultimate aim of the LinuxTV wiki."

I note that "hvr950" itself definitely produces a hit result in the search, but the other two do indeed suffer as a result of the three letter search limitation (both a space and dash are not read by the
search engine). However, there isn't anything unique to the hvr-950
in this regards, as the same thing holds true with plenty of other entries (e.g. perform a search in the wiki(s) for , say, "QAM", "NXP", "MSI", "i2c", "VLC" , "RDS" etc etc etc.). The three letter search limitation is quite common to most forums and wikis. I have no idea if there is much that we can do about that.

But I do know that multiple redirects makes things messy and lends itself to complications. (Nor is it necessary to have every possible spelling of entries, as some have done -- hypothetical example for the word digital: digital, Digital, DIGITAL, dig., Dig. etc ).

I also would encourage people to use the indexes (link provided on main pages of wiki(s)) when searching. They are neat and orderly, and if you are viewing the page with a browser that supports "find as you type", finding "950" takes seconds.

I also specifically implemented a triangular gateway system between manufacturer pages, device type and the actual device page. So, it usually shouldn't be too hard to find a particular model if its been added to the wiki [I note that, since formalizing entries (e.g. Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-950, as opposed to simply "hvr-950"), other users have caught on to the nomenclature system, as well as adopting the similar article section layout! It used to be quite common that someone would just simply create, say, "TV Walker" as opposed to a formal "LifeView TV Walker Twin DVB-T (LR540)" entry].

In conclusion, I would like to see redirects kept to a bear minimum and believe that finding device information in the wiki(s) is not that difficult, and is aided by several vectors/avenues of approach by which the user can take.

3) For your viewing pleasure (and in the spirit of Halloween) I resurrect an older thread that I'd like to see some meaning movement made upon :

http://marc.info/?l=linux-dvb&m=120000803816050&w=2

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#2 lore raw
In reply to CityK

Hi CityK,

Quoted 3 lines · CityK

1) I've started the merger of the V4L and DVB wikis. I posted an announcement on the main page of both.

Thanks for doing this! I also hope the design drafts on User:CityK will manifest itself on the main page sometime.

Quoted 5 lines

3) For your viewing pleasure (and in the spirit of Halloween) I resurrect an older thread that I'd like to see some meaning movement made upon :

http://marc.info/?l=linux-dvb&m=120000803816050&w=2

(about merging the linux-dvb and video4linux-list)

Maybe it would be a good idea to create a new list on vger.kernel.org which assimilates linux-dvb, video4linux-list and v4l-dvb-maintainer. vger.kernel.org has outstanding spam filters so their lists generally allow postings from non-subscribers.

How about just creating such a list as a replacement for v4l-dvb-maintainer, and then see if linux-dvb and video4linux-list users accept it and move their discussions over?

Best Regards

Johannes

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#3 lore raw
Quoted 11 lines · Johannes Stezenbach

Hi CityK,

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:22:34PM -0400, CityK wrote:
(about merging the linux-dvb and video4linux-list)

Maybe it would be a good idea to create a new list on vger.kernel.org which assimilates linux-dvb, video4linux-list and v4l-dvb-maintainer. vger.kernel.org has outstanding spam filters so their lists generally allow postings from non-subscribers.

Quoted 4 lines

How about just creating such a list as a replacement for v4l-dvb-maintainer, and then see if linux-dvb and video4linux-list users accept it and move their discussions over?

Mauro and I were discussing this face to face at the Linux Plumbers conference...

What we would like to do is leave the video4linux and linux-dvb mailing lists as user lists, create a new -devel mailing list, and redirect v4l-dvb-maintainer to the new list. (Probably hosted on vger, but that hasnt yet been determined)

The devel list would be an open list for developers only. Any tech-support related stuff would remain on the lists that are still used today.

Specifically, we wanted to move the "v4l-dvb-maintainer" list to somewhere with spam filtering and turn this into a list where all development discussions and pull requests can take place. We want a separation between user requests and developer discussion, so merging everything into a single list is not the direction that we want to take.

-Mike

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#4 lore raw
Quoted 10 lines · Michael Krufky

What we would like to do is leave the video4linux and linux-dvb mailing lists as user lists, create a new -devel mailing list, and redirect v4l-dvb-maintainer to the new list. (Probably hosted on vger, but that hasnt yet been determined)

The devel list would be an open list for developers only. Any tech-support related stuff would remain on the lists that are still used today.

Quoted 6 lines

Specifically, we wanted to move the "v4l-dvb-maintainer" list to somewhere with spam filtering and turn this into a list where all development discussions and pull requests can take place. We want a separation between user requests and developer discussion, so merging everything into a single list is not the direction that we want to take.

Personally I'm generally not in favour of splitting an open source community in "users" and "developers", but I guess I'm the odd man out with that POV...

However, similar to that there should be ONE developer list, I think there should be ONE user list, and not two. Maybe we should just shut linux-dvb down and ask users to subscribe to the video4linux list? Or do people think it's still useful to have distinct lists for analog and digital?

Either way, IMHO you can't go wrong with moving v4l-dvb-maintainer to vger so if you agree I'd like to encourage you to go forward with that.

Johannes

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#5 lore raw
Quoted 5 lines · Johannes Stezenbach

However, similar to that there should be ONE developer list, I think there should be ONE user list, and not two. Maybe we should just shut linux-dvb down and ask users to subscribe to the video4linux list?

Please don't do this. Some (many) people, including me, are not able to post to the video4linux list. The answer is always 'Your message to video4linux-list awaits moderator approval' and nothing does happen. It seems, nobody from redhat is responsible for this issue.

-Hartmut

_______________________________________________
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[email protected]
http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb

#6 lore raw
In reply to Johannes Stezenbach
Quoted 17 lines · On Tuesday 28 October 2008 20:27:39 Johannes Stezenbach wrote:
Quoted 9 lines · Michael Krufky

What we would like to do is leave the video4linux and linux-dvb mailing lists as user lists, create a new -devel mailing list, and redirect v4l-dvb-maintainer to the new list. (Probably hosted on vger, but that hasnt yet been determined)

The devel list would be an open list for developers only. Any tech-support related stuff would remain on the lists that are still used today.

Quoted 6 lines

Specifically, we wanted to move the "v4l-dvb-maintainer" list to somewhere with spam filtering and turn this into a list where all development discussions and pull requests can take place. We want a separation between user requests and developer discussion, so merging everything into a single list is not the direction that we want to take.

Quoted 3 lines

Personally I'm generally not in favour of splitting an open source community in "users" and "developers", but I guess I'm the odd man out with that POV...

I think that keeping only one list will generate too much traffic. I find it useful to have separate user and devel lists (provided people do read the user list and not just the devel list).

Quoted 6 lines

However, similar to that there should be ONE developer list, I think there should be ONE user list, and not two. Maybe we should just shut linux-dvb down and ask users to subscribe to the video4linux list? Or do people think it's still useful to have distinct lists for analog and digital?

I'm very much in favor of having one v4l-dvb-user and one v4l-dvb-devel list. I've always disliked it that there were separate lists. Certainly the average user doesn't care whether his card is digital or analog or both, so one user list is very much desired IMHO.

Quoted 3 lines

Either way, IMHO you can't go wrong with moving v4l-dvb-maintainer to vger so if you agree I'd like to encourage you to go forward with that.

I agree as well. As far as I am concerned we should end up with two lists on vger: v4l-dvb-user and v4l-dvb-devel. Should be a nice improvement, certainly for the video4linux list which is still with redhat.com and with hard to access archives.

Regards,

Hans

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author
#7 lore raw
In reply to Michael Krufky

Hi Folks, sorry for the late reply.

Re: merging the linux-dvb and video4linux-list

Quoted 11 lines · Hans Verkuil

I'm very much in favor of having one v4l-dvb-user and one v4l-dvb-devel list. I've always disliked it that there were separate lists. Certainly the average user doesn't care whether his card is digital or analog or both, so one user list is very much desired IMHO.

Quoted 4 lines

Either way, IMHO you can't go wrong with moving v4l-dvb-maintainer to vger so if you agree I'd like to encourage you to go forward with that.

Quoted 4 lines

I agree as well. As far as I am concerned we should end up with two lists on vger: v4l-dvb-user and v4l-dvb-devel. Should be a nice improvement, certainly for the video4linux list which is still with redhat.com and with hard to access archives.

In my original email, from early 2008, I mentioned creating a consistent branding under the "LinuxTV" moniker. Hans had replied to that (as he did above), suggesting instead, to go with the "V4L-DVB" moniker. And I completely agree with this suggestion -- (see Hans ' original reply in the other thread, as he outlined several key points as to why this is better/more apt). I am also in complete agreement to his above reply.

So, to summarize my current opinion, I would like to Introduce a common branding across the wiki's, m/l's, and #irc channels, using the "V4L-DVB" moniker. This would mean:

a) wiki:
the "V4L-DVB wiki", hosted on the LinuxTV Project website

b) mailing lists
- a unified "v4l-dvb-user" mailing list
- a "v4l-dvb-devel" mailing list
- hosted on either linuxtv.org or vger ... (I know nothing about vger, but obviously it stands in high regards by you guys, so it sounds like a good choice)

c) #irc
- a unified #v4l-dvb channel

Some questions for Michael and Mauro:
- I'm not clear from Mike's reply, but do you guys actually want to keep two separate user lists? If so, can you outline your reasoning for this please?
- it would stand to reason that you hold similarly on the matter of a unified #irc channel?
- lastly, Michael, you once mentioned that you were opposed to the link to the #irc channel being featured prominently on the Linuxtv Website, or within the wiki .... can you refresh my memory as to why you felt this way? As it is my opinion that this is precisely something that should receive a prominent position in order to help facilitate discussion

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#8 lore raw
In reply to Johannes Stezenbach

Hi Johannes, sorry for the delay in replying:

Quoted 3 lines · Johannes Stezenbach

I also hope the design drafts on User:CityK will manifest itself on the main page sometime.

I hope so too. Though, going to definitely need the help of a graphic artist to transfer the rough ideas into something a little more refined (like a nice scalable graphic and icon set). Such talents are beyond my current skill set, and I don't really have the time or interest to pick them up.

M.Krufky once expressed interest in helping in that regard, but I suspect he has enough on his plate as it is. But it shouldn't be too hard to find someone who can work on this aspect.

Quoted 4 lines

BTW, don't hesitate to ask for technical assistance directly, although I can't promise anything since we are moving our office this week so there's little time left for linuxtv...

Okay, thanks. First request: When you have some free time, can you look into setting up a "V4L:" namespace please. See relevant pages below (I 've tried, but I can't figure out how to edit the LocalSettings.php file -- apparently I'm not the only one; see last link).

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgExtraNamespaces
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:LocalSettings.php
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:LocalSettings.php#Where_is_this_file.3F

I'll get back to you in the near future on a few other points.

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#9 lore raw
Quoted 11 lines · CityK

Okay, thanks. First request: When you have some free time, can you look into setting up a "V4L:" namespace please. See relevant pages below (I 've tried, but I can't figure out how to edit the LocalSettings.php file -- apparently I'm not the only one; see last link).

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgExtraNamespaces
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:LocalSettings.php
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:LocalSettings.php#Where_is_this_file.3F

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces#Why_you_would_want_a_custom_namespace
A custom namespace can be used to hold content that should not be shown on the search results page.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault
Note that changing these values in LocalSettings.php only affects newly created and anonymous users - it does not change the settings for existing users.

That sounds rather cumbersome. My feeling is that MediaWiki namespaces are not meant to be used for separating main content, but only for separating secondary pages like in the technical support example.

Are you sure you want this?

Johannes

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#10 lore raw

Merging V4L, DVB and Maintainers Mailing lists at VGER - Was: Re: [linux-dvb] Announcement: wiki merger and some loose ends

In reply to Johannes Stezenbach
Quoted 8 lines · On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:21:52 +0100 Johannes Stezenbach <[email protected]> wrote:

(about merging the linux-dvb and video4linux-list)

Maybe it would be a good idea to create a new list on vger.kernel.org which assimilates linux-dvb, video4linux-list and v4l-dvb-maintainer. vger.kernel.org has outstanding spam filters so their lists generally allow postings from non-subscribers.

Quoted 4 lines

How about just creating such a list as a replacement for v4l-dvb-maintainer, and then see if linux-dvb and video4linux-list users accept it and move their discussions over?

The idea of merging the mailing lists is running around for some time.

It took some time for me to have time to address this issue, but it finally happened. We've just created it as:
[email protected]

The idea is to replace the v4l-dvb-maintainer mailing list by [email protected], being the main point for both V4L and DVB development.

One of the advantages is that vger anti-spam filters are very efficient, and we can have the mailing list opened to bug reports from non-subscribers without the risk of receiving lots of trash.

Also, almost all other kernel development mailing lists are there.

We'll probably integrate the mailing list soon with the newly-created patchwork.kernel.org. Patchwork is a tool that allows the developers to do a better job of handling patches without the risk of having patches lost somewhere.

I'll later put an announcement after having the tool integrated with [email protected].

For now, I kindly want to invite you all, and specially the developers to subscribe [email protected].

To subscribe, just send an email to:

[email protected]

With the body containing:
subscribe linux-media

Cheers,
Mauro

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