Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?
Quoted 4 lines
However, with a license like the GPL, every game has to be developed on a proprietary base. You simply can't afford to put any money into an open source base. So every game has to start back from square one, or the most advanced proprietary base that can be found.
Back in the heyday of attention to open source, I spent hours and hours and hours on the phone with Raymond trying to get the OSI to come up with a "business source license" which would address some of these issues. think there is a strong need for something like that, but the GPL fanatics are desperate to paint the world as black or white and force people into an entirely open or entirely closed choice. The reason they want to do this is that they know darn well that it is always the middle of the road compromise which wins, and they don't want to compromise. So we get these endless tirades about how the GPL is the One True Way and anything else is Evil.
It was most unfortunate that I couldn't get anywhere with ESR. If he and the OSI had come up with some compromises, rather than just pandering to a small but vocal group, I think that he would have cemented a significant place in history. I am positive that the world will eventually move in directions where there is some sort of compromise, maybe something like you get N years of closed use and then the old stuff has to be opened, whatever. The world already understands that you need to make money to survive and the world is starting to understand that there is value in having things be open.
Signature · 2 lines
--- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
Quoted 15 lines · Larry McVoy
Quoted 3 lines
However, with a license like the GPL, every game has to be developed on a proprietary base. You simply can't afford to put any money into an open source base. So every game has to start back from square one, or the most advanced proprietary base that can be found.
Back in the heyday of attention to open source, I spent hours and hours and hours on the phone with Raymond trying to get the OSI to come up with a "business source license" which would address some of these issues. think there is a strong need for something like that, but the GPL fanatics are desperate to paint the world as black or white and force people into an entirely open or entirely closed choice. The reason they want to do this is that they know darn well that it is always the middle of the road compromise which wins, and they don't want to compromise. So we get these endless tirades about how the GPL is the One True Way and anything else is Evil.
Quoted 10 lines
It was most unfortunate that I couldn't get anywhere with ESR. If he and the OSI had come up with some compromises, rather than just pandering to a small but vocal group, I think that he would have cemented a significant place in history. I am positive that the world will eventually move in directions where there is some sort of compromise, maybe something like you get N years of closed use and then the old stuff has to be opened, whatever. The world already understands that you need to make money to survive and the world is starting to understand that there is value in having things be open.
Well the 2 most obvious licenses would be usage based and escrow like.
1) In a usage based license you would be required to posses a license to use the software. You would posses the source, permission to make modification, and permission to use the resulting binaries. Ideally the license would also allow redistribution of patches, and reselling licenses.
This is the sort of license I think Microsoft should be persuing with
their larger customers. Giving your customer source, with the ability to use modified binaries is just silly. As far as games go you can see how this would work and stimulate sales just by looking at the mod community for Tribes, or Quake. Or the use of the various 3D engines by 3rd parties.
While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy. Let's be
honest how many pirates compile anything. At most they disable the copy protection with hex-editor.
2)Escrow licenses are fairly common in business today for various types of custom software. In essence the source is held by a 3rd party and given to the customer if the licenser is in breach of contract. I can easily see a license not requiring a third party, but simply stating that the source would be released upon the software becoming unsupported, after a time frame, or if the vendor failed to address a certain class of bug within a time frame.
There is no such thing as obsolete hardware.
Merely hardware that other people don't want.
(The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition)
Sam Flory <[email protected]>
Quoted 2 lines
While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy. Let's be
honest how many pirates compile anything.
A prominent open source supporter once told me that "putting software out there with any open source license is like putting it out there in the public domain".
The pirates absolutely know how to compile things and they do.
Signature · 2 lines
--- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
Absolutely.
Putting out the source for a game would be financial suicide. Unlike (most) corporations, Kids don't understand or care about licenses. The trouble with digital data as we all know is that it is infinitely perfectly reproducible. In my industry (games), that includes binaries :(
Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side code :)
It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.
Somewhat like Larry's business model I think?
Quoted 8 lines · Larry McVoy
Quoted 1 line
While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy. Let's be honest how many pirates compile anything.
A prominent open source supporter once told me that "putting software out there with any open source license is like putting it out there in the public domain".
The pirates absolutely know how to compile things and they do.
Quoted 3 lines · Andrew Walrond
Absolutely.
Putting out the source for a game would be financial suicide. Unlike (most) corporations, Kids don't understand or care about licenses. The trouble with digital data as we all know is that it is infinitely perfectly reproducible. In my industry (games), that includes binaries :(
I simply question the idea that someone would need or want to download
the source, and compile it for the purposes of piracy. The current state of things seems to indicate the absence of source doesn't prevent piracy. I suspect that I can find a usable pirated copy of virtually any popular software on the net. This because copy protection doesn't work against any intelligent and determined person. It works against the really lazy, and stupid who wouldn't be able, or want to compile a program any way.
Quoted 4 lines
Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side code :)
Quoted 18 lines
It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.
Somewhat like Larry's business model I think?
Quoted 9 lines · Larry McVoy
Quoted 1 line
While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy. Let's be honest how many pirates compile anything.
A prominent open source supporter once told me that "putting software out there with any open source license is like putting it out there in the public domain".
The pirates absolutely know how to compile things and they do.
Yes but why bother. You don't need the source code to pirate software.
Signature · 4 lines
There is no such thing as obsolete hardware. Merely hardware that other people don't want. (The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition) Sam Flory <[email protected]>
From: "Samuel Flory" <[email protected]>
Quoted 8 lines
I simply question the idea that someone would need or want to download
the source, and compile it for the purposes of piracy. The current state of things seems to indicate the absence of source doesn't prevent piracy. I suspect that I can find a usable pirated copy of virtually any popular software on the net. This because copy protection doesn't work against any intelligent and determined person. It works against the really lazy, and stupid who wouldn't be able, or want to compile a program any way.
There is a logic fallacy here, Samuel. Absence of source not preventing theft has nothing to do with the level and kind of theft if the source is placed out there for competitors to steal. When the hardware playing field is more or less even and the OS playing field is more or less even the only particular value added for games or for small marketplace code comes from wringing superior performance out of the provided components. When I place a piece of software out for purchase that features a new innovation in the use of a given hardware platform my competitors look it over intently, "How'd she do that?" I am pretty sure they can figure it out quickly enough. But, I still have a 3 to 6 month lead time to pay for the roof over my head before the competitors are selling the same feature. If I give then my source code that lead time goes away and I am left flipping burgers to pay for a coding habit. Trust me, it ain't going to go down that way. If a benefactor cares to pay for my innovations and release them with source immediately then I am willing to play the game. I am not after world domination. I just want to pay for my food and housing and some hobbies so that my life is worth living. I'm just not willing to give away what should be creating a life for me. That way of living is an exotic form of suicide. As a software consultant my income is getting paid for my work. If I release that code to the public immediately it is ready for release I don't have an income. Both my stomach and the IRS get disappointed. The latter I can happily deal with. The former is more bother than I can handle.
{^_^} Joanne, [email protected]
Quoted 4 lines · jdow
From: "Samuel Flory" <[email protected]>
Quoted 9 lines
Quoted 4 lines
I simply question the idea that someone would need or want to download
the source, and compile it for the purposes of piracy. The current state of things seems to indicate the absence of source doesn't prevent piracy. I suspect that I can find a usable pirated copy of virtually any popular software on the net. This because copy protection doesn't work against any intelligent and determined person. It works against the really lazy, and stupid who wouldn't be able, or want to compile a program any way.There is a logic fallacy here, Samuel. Absence of source not preventing theft has nothing to do with the level and kind of theft if the source is placed out there for competitors to steal.
There is no logical fallacy as I was talking in terms of consumer
level piracy.
Quoted 12 lines
When the hardware playing
field is more or less even and the OS playing field is more or less even the only particular value added for games or for small marketplace code comes from wringing superior performance out of the provided components. When I place a piece of software out for purchase that features a new innovation in the use of a given hardware platform my competitors look it over intently, "How'd she do that?" I am pretty sure they can figure it out quickly enough. But, I still have a 3 to 6 month lead time to pay for the roof over my head before the competitors are selling the same feature. If I give then my source code that lead time goes away and I am left flipping burgers to pay for a coding habit.
Don't get me wrong I understand this. This is why I feel most games
would tend toward an escrow license if they tended toward any sort of open license. You could claim this as a trend by citing Doom, and Quake. Few games have a shelf life much beyond 6 months.
That said I've never bought a game because it had a certain feature.
(Other than the ability to pause and issue orders in RTS.)
Quoted 4 lines
Trust me, it ain't
going to go down that way. If a benefactor cares to pay for my innovations and release them with source immediately then I am willing to play the game. I am not after world domination. I just want to pay
Quoted 10 lines
for my food and housing and some hobbies so that my life is worth living. I'm just not willing to give away what should be creating a life for me. That way of living is an exotic form of suicide. As a software consultant my income is getting paid for my work. If I release that code to the public immediately it is ready for release I don't have an income. Both my stomach and the IRS get disappointed. The latter I can happily deal with. The former is more bother than I can handle.
I think you are taking this discussion a bit more serious than me.
I'm just theorizing where trends are (or could be) heading. Of course my livelihood has always been dependent on selling hardware;-)
Signature · 4 lines
There is no such thing as obsolete hardware. Merely hardware that other people don't want. (The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition) Sam Flory <[email protected]>
Quoted 4 lines · Andrew Walrond
Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side code :) It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.
If the game is good enough, it isn't pirate proof. I believe that Blizzard and other such companies have pursued this course in the past. The result? The hackers watch the communication between the client and the server and write their own servers. They even go so far as to pretend as if the practice is legal by putting disclaimers on the "public servers" that state that "you may only connect to this service if you have purchased a valid license for this game." Of course, they don't verify license keys...
mark
Signature · 9 lines
[email protected]/[email protected]/[email protected] __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/
if the server is just a comm relay this is true, but if the server implements real game logic then it's much less of a problem (show me the copycat everquest servers for example)
as for validating license keys, if you want that to happen you have to make the validation code public (which is possible if you use the right algorithm)
David Lang
Quoted 42 lines · Mark Mielke
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:30:11 -0500
From: Mark Mielke <[email protected]>
To: Andrew Walrond <[email protected]>
Cc: Larry McVoy <[email protected]>, Samuel Flory <[email protected]>,
David Schwartz <[email protected]>, Marco Monteiro <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
drivers?Quoted 4 lines · Andrew Walrond
Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side code :) It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.
If the game is good enough, it isn't pirate proof. I believe that Blizzard and other such companies have pursued this course in the past. The result? The hackers watch the communication between the client and the server and write their own servers. They even go so far as to pretend as if the practice is legal by putting disclaimers on the "public servers" that state that "you may only connect to this service if you have purchased a valid license for this game." Of course, they don't verify license keys...
mark
--
[email protected]/[email protected]/[email protected] __________________________. . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, CanadaOne ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them...-
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Quoted 5 lines · David Lang
if the server is just a comm relay this is true, but if the server implements real game logic then it's much less of a problem (show me the copycat everquest servers for example)
Signature · 4 lines
There is no such thing as obsolete hardware. Merely hardware that other people don't want. (The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition) Sam Flory <[email protected]>