Listmaster request: Blacklist [email protected]

Hi Matti, hi Dave,

I've adjusted my procmail filters now, still people using web archives suffer from Richard's ignorance of the technical charta, his bad trolling and offending everyone on the list. As his previous posts have been of a similar "quality" I'd like to request blacklisting him from the vger list.

Thanks in advance,
Christoph

Offending everyone? That's interesting, I found his points perfectly valid.

If he's no longer bothering you, why do you feel a need to shut everyone else out from a valid argument, too? Other people who don't like it are just as capable of using procmail.

Do you have the right to make that decision for them ? Is that any different from a government deciding what you don't need to hear or a corrupt police state dictator trying to hide things[1] 8). If you think rms should be blacklisted I'd like to propose you are blacklisted too for being dangerously naiive 8)

Alan
[1] say for example
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/09/1034061258269.html

I want to blacklist for a histroy of 100% oftopic posts. I don't want him to shutup at all, just post to a list where his rants are ontopic, say gnu-ethics.

Hi,

That's of course also a way to deal with different opinions. :-( The whole thread was offtopic from the very beginning, but only RMS is disallowed to state his opinion.
Requesting censorship like this is highly disgusting.

bye, Roman

Well, _he_ started that thread, and the only posts to his list ever where to start such threads. People need to get the difference between a technical list and a gnu discussion list. If he ever wants to post a useful patch instead of just rants I'm sure everyone will welcome him here.

Hi,

No, he didn't. He just made the mistake to choose another subject.

bye, Roman

HE started the original thread, and he changed the subject to get out of the blocking.

Hi,

The original thread was started by Tom Gall and went through several incarnations:

Subject: New BK License Problem?
Subject: BK MetaData License Problem?
Subject: BK is *evil* corporate software
Subject: Off topic, bandwidth wasting, waffle about Bit Keeper
Subject: BK license questions and answers
Subject: Bitkeeper outrage, old and new

So everyone else who changed the subject will be blacklisted too?

bye, Roman

Well, he didn't just change the subject but started a new thread (*).

But this discussion starts to get more offtopic than the original one, so this will be my last reply.

(*) aka didn't quote anything from ealier mails, different subject

Hi,

Let me summarize to see if I understand this correctly: Offtopic posts are allowed if they include quotes of previous mails and/or reuse an existing subject. Not following these rules is punished by the thought police and can only be avoided by offering a sacrifice to the net gods. About right?

Which discussion? :-)

bye, Roman

"Maaaa! He started it!"

:P

And here I thought that particular flamewar started back on October 4:

http://lists.insecure.org/lists/linux-kernel/2002/Oct/1518.html

Rob

I am occasionally sorely tempted to put in a subject filter that cuts a thread carrying active flamewars.

If a flame-war continues for more than 3 days, such blockage might be worthwhile for next couple weeks. After that the thread should have died...

/Matti Aarnio

<rant on>

Not for nothing, lists are for discussion. PERIOD. I didn't see a label that said, "This is a *technical* discussion list only. Only post *technical* discussions here." If that were the case, you would be blocking THIS post and all of the people posting to it as well. This discussion is HIGHLY not of the technical nature, and *YOU* started it. So getting back to what Alan said, "If you think
rms should be blacklisted I'd like to propose you are blacklisted too for being dangerously naiive" And IMO, also for being so very illogical. Also you would be blocking half of the people posting to this list because a good deal of the posts to this list could be considered "not technical" or "not related to the linux kernel." The email client gods made filters for a reason, to block things *YOU* don't like, and honestly it seems that *YOU* are the only person complaining.

<rant off>

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [email protected]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Nice quote John, to bad it doesn't say "This is a *technical* discussion list only. Only post *technical* discussions here." And it says "Stick to the subject" which, unfortunately, can be interpreted many different ways. I'm not saying I like ranting, but if it is subject related, something should be said. I'll be honest I haven't gone back and read all of RMS's posts to see exactly how off topic they are, but I just don't want to see this list going the way of censorship. I get enough of that crap living in the US.

I'll agree there that I'd like to see this end, so I promise no further posts from me. Oh and in the future, you might want to respond to the list so everyone can enjoy the fun of a conversation.

(BTW, Nice sig.)

Oh, yes, get the reason through censorship :))) That's a very
ethic way of doing things. Hey, how about blacklisting all people you don't like from vger? If you don't like RMS posts, you have ALL right to blacklist him from YOUR system. Censorship on vger will do no good to Linux. Freedom doesn't get its way through censorship. Fascism do.

Raúl

Much as I disagree with Stallman about nearly everything, and much as I agree that his posts recently have been way off-topic, I cannot agree with such a disgusting and unethical solution. Silencing one viewpoint simply because you disagree with it is just ... well, I don't use that kind of language. Many people have started offtopic threads here without anyone suggesting they be blacklisted, so I can only assume the suggestion here is based on the content and not just the general off-topic nature. Most free-speech advocates would find such a thing disgusting at best.

Murray J. Root
------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/
------------------------------------------------
Mandrake on irc.freenode.net:
  #mandrake & #mandrake-linux = help for newbies 
  #mdk-cooker = Mandrake Cooker 

Please re-read Christoph's message -- the request was made because RMS simply has never posted a single on-topic message. By that measure he could easily and quite rightly be labelled a spammer...

That said, _because_ it can easily be thought of as censorship, I -DO NOT- think that RMS should be blacklisted by the mail admins from lkml.

Killfiled? Yes. Blacklisted, no.

Jeff

Richard's emails to this list are very occasional, and short.

To this reader at least, they are interesting and welcome.

Guys, this whole issue is never going to go away. There are legitimate views on both sides. We just have to be accommodating.

Agreed. One thought that occurred to me as I was tucking in my kids (yeah, sick that I think about this crap that much) was that both Richard and I are very convinced that what we are doing is good for the community. We have opposing views on how to do it (in this case) but it is worth remembering that we are both trying to help as best we are able.

The flame wars are inevitable when you get two strong willed people both trying to do the right thing in opposite ways, it's no surprise, or it shouldn't be. But the thought I had was that it was worth remembering that Richard is trying to do the right thing for you and so am I. He's not the enemy, he's a friend.

We really ought to be able to be a lot more reasonable about all this stuff, we all have the same goals, we are all trying to make the world a better place (swell of violin music as I puke on myself for throwing out cliches :) More seriously, my view is that if we're fighting amongst ourselves, we blew it. We should be fighting Microsoft, they are the real problem, Richard isn't, the GPL isn't, BK isn't. Let's keep our eye on the ball.

I'm off to watch some hockey, which is even more fun than this, amazingly enough... You can take the boy out of Wisconsin, but you can't take Wisconsin out of the boy.

---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Richard Stallman started the free software foundation. He built the compiler, library and zillions of other tools that developers use on a day to day basis. He slept at the offices of MIT while he spent his time, effort and money building up the Free Software Foundation.

Though many people differ with him on a wide variety of issues, he deserves respect from all because he has devoted twenty years of his life to the public good.

You, on the other hand, develop and sell a proprietary software product. You convinced a large number of kernel developers (most importantly Linus himself) to use your proprietary product to develop free software, so that you could tell potential customers "Gee! Look how great my software is! It's used to develop the linux kernel!"

You don't care about free software Larry. You're just glad that you have a poster child to display your effort. Want proof? Look at how you have treated numerous kernel developers when you found out that they worked on free software projects that could potentially compete with your software some day -- you revoke their "free" license to use your software to work on the linux kernel!

Richard is trying to change the world into a better place. You, however, are trying to get rich, and you're using free software as a stepping stone to promote your proprietary software. Nothing wrong with getting rich of course -- I'd love to be rich too. But you certainly don't deserve to be lumped into the same group as RMS.

Are you trying to do the right thing, Larry? Do you think that Tom Gall thought you were doing the right thing when you told him he could no longer use bitkeeper to work on the kernel because he also works on subversion? Do you think that Ingo Molnar thought you were doing the right thing when you avoided his questions? Do you think Hans Reiser felt like you were doing the right thing when he had to change his timeline on Reiserfs so as to avoid competing with your project as long as possible?

Frankly speaking, to someone like me, it seems like you have singlehandedly managed to cause a very sore spot amongst a lot of kernel developers. I can't help but wonder if some day this is going to end up causing the first serious kernel fork -- fork A with Linus Torvalds and those that wish to use your software and fork B with everyone else that feels like proprietary software shouldn't be used as a crutch to develop proprietary software.

The ball that we're supposed to be keeping our eye on is things like not being able to fix the driver for a printer because some company would rather force you to pay them for software updates rather than giving you the ability to fix something for yourself.

You should have kept out of the free software world Larry. You should have stuck with promoting your software for the development of just proprietary software. None of these issues would exist if you hadn't shown on the scene.

Tomorrow I am going to call the free software foundation and ask them for details on how to donate $100 a month towards writing a replacement for your proprietary software that Linus will be willing to use for developing the kernel. My sincere hope is that others will follow suit to their ability.

After all - this does become a moot point if there's something better than what you have to offer.

Enjoy your game.

GnuPG fingerprint AAE4 8C76 58DA 5902 761D  247A 8A55 DA73 0635 7400
James Blackwell  --  Director http://www.linuxguru.net

I did not change my timeline. Though I was tempted to move version control up in the priority queue, it nonetheless will remain low until the right developer comes along, or other things that also need doing are moved out of that queue.

Hans

I'm very sorry. I could have sworn you had said something along the lines of 'Some day I want to put version control into reiser, which could technically be considered a competitor to bitkeeper. I have a lot of other things to do with reiserfs as well so I'll do those first'. But when I went back through the list, I couldn't find it.

The closest to that I could find was the following:

I must have gotten the issues involved with reiserfs confused with another project.

Again, I'm sorry I got your position wrong.

GnuPG fingerprint AAE4 8C76 58DA 5902 761D  247A 8A55 DA73 0635 7400
James Blackwell  --  Director http://www.linuxguru.net

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't agree at all with what you are saying. If what you are saying was true we would have shut down the free version of the product long ago. That fact that we don't now, given attacks such as yours, is perhaps the strongest indicator of our commitment to Linux.

I did a little digging to figure out who you are and I'm a bit confused. My Linux involvement predates yours by only a few years, we've both been here for a long time. Unless you are saying that 10 years ago I hatched this evil plot to hijack the Linux kernel, your statements simply are not supported by history. Which anyone can check out, thanks to Google groups.

---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

I make no moral claims as to whether or not you are a good person. Frankly, the question is immaterial. No. That's not what I said. I reserve terms for evil for people like hitler and puppy killers. No. I think you're a guy trying to make money. Nothing wrong that. That's how the great majority (if not all) of the world works.

The point I was making was that you and Richard Stallman do not have the same goal in mind. His goal is to alleviate what he percieves as an ill in society. Your goal is to run a business. You have stated so yourself.

I'm glad that you don't agree that I think you're evil since I don't think that way at all.

My arguments are that you and your software are causing more damage to free software development than they are worth and that you and Richard do not have the same goals.

Ok. I started back in early 1996 and since then I've spent somewhere around 12,000 hours helping people use linux and other free software (such as RMS's gnu system). I spend a large amount of my time assisting people using Linux productively via #Linux on dalnet, which I preside over. I've submitted a moderate number of small patches to various projects such as the kernel, freeciv, sac, linuxtrade, gnunet etc, which are usually turned down for one good reason or another. I run a small website that focuses on free software news. Recently, I paid a undisclosed amount of money for the rights to have Linuxtrade relicensed under a free software license. I'm a firm supporter of the precepts of free software because I believe that as software becomes more pervasive in society, the rights for the individual to patch a program should exist just as the right exists to repair a car rather than return it to the dealer.

Of course I'm not accusing you of some conspiracy. You have been quite clear and up front on what you do, what you offer and how you profit.

Though I'm sure you remember what you've said, I'll summarize for those that somehow managed to slip into this thread out of context. You write a proprietary source code revision system by the name of bitkeeper. You offered free licences to linux kernel developers among others. Your motivation is that you can use linux kernel development as a showcase example when you hunt down people that are willing to pay you. This isn't something that I have any issue with.

To make the issues I bring up more clear, I'll list them here:

1. You are anticompetitive wrt source code revision systems.

You are attempting to leverage the free licenses you give kernel developers to slow down/halt the development of free software code revision systems such as subversion. Though process may or may not be beneficial to the linux kernel (I leave this argument for others with more experience), one thing is clear: This process is clearly not beneficial to free software that potentially competes with yours. I don't make any claim as to whether or not you are doing the right thing. I only make the claim that there is damage to free software occuring.

Even more clearly: you are trying to impede development of free software such as subversion and that affects me in a negative way. The slower that projects such as subversion and an sccs for reiserfs develop, the longer I'm stuck with cvs.

2. Your goals are not those of Richard Stallman's.

The goal of the FSF (established 1985 or so by Richard Stallman and run by the same to this day) are very clear and can be read at
http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/philosophy.html. When you get right down to it, the goals of the FSF are to give people the freedom to escape people who say things such as "If you develop subversion, then you can't use bitkeeper to work on the kernel". Instead of dealing with this issue head on, you try and convince others "to keep their eye on the ball" and to go chase microsoft?

3. Your software is responsible for a growing rift between developers

If you wish, I can go through all 500 or 600 emails and try and list which people seem to be on which side of the issue, but I'd rather assume that you and others can see for themselves. The only question regarding this issue is whether this rift were to grow deep enough to cause a fork. Hypothetically speaking here... wouldn't you agree it would be a shame if we ended up with a Linux-A lead by Linus Torvalds and a Linux-B lead by Alan Cox (Alan works at Redhat, which I understand supports amongst other things, subversion)?

My thoughts and position on many things have changed over the years and I have no doubts that you could probably manage to drag up something embarassing about me. Surely we are both adult enough that we wouldn't stoop to something so low as an ad hominem attack, so I don't think its an issue.

GnuPG fingerprint AAE4 8C76 58DA 5902 761D  247A 8A55 DA73 0635 7400
James Blackwell  --  Director http://www.linuxguru.net

Well, Richards goal is to force his ideology on everyone. Larry's goal in lkml context is to help to reduce Linus' load, in the context of his business, Bitkeeper it's probably to make money - at least enough for him and his employees to live.

He's done more than one thing in the past that has made me want to tear my hair out. I agree with you. He has a bit to much "my way or my way" seasoning for my tastes as well and I honestly do wish that RMS would give an honest shot at trying to convert the world to his way of thinking in smaller steps... One thing to his credit though... He has accomplished an awful lot. Would you agree with this?

If we accept your argument as it stands, then my point is valid. Larry and RMS don't have the same goal. I don't agree with Larry and your stand about Larry's goal, but I'll follow that up in my reply to Larry this evening.

I don't think so. Richard's goal seems to be to attempt to convince everyone his ideology is good. He doesn't appear to be trying to force anyone to do anything. If you don't like his free software concept, you don't have to GPL your code.

Larry, however, is forcing developers off of a BM-hosted project simply because one of their hobbies is in competition with his company, and has explicitly rejected granting limited license to such people for the sole purpose of developing for BM-hosted projects. Larry also has the potential to significantly influence kernel development by threatening withdrawal of BM hosting if the kernel incorporates "competing" features. Larry hides behind the excuse that (e.g. subversion) developers would get a feel for BK operation and implement competing features in subversion, ignoring that those developers probably understand most of the significant BK features already. Then he rants about how nobody would do the work BM is doing without pay, and carefully avoids connecting that argument to his rationale for disallowing competing developers use of BK exclusively for BM-hosted projects.

I'm sick of Larry, and I bet he's sick of me, but this BK mess is bad mojo.

And so is posting to this flamewar.

When faced with the prisoner's dilemma, kill your accomplice.

This is where we disagree. BitKeeper was started to help Linus. Pure and simple. Maybe it's not a well known thing, I thought it was, but it's true all the same. I quit my job at Cobalt, had about 4 or 5 hour design discussion with Linus, DaveM and Richard Henderson on my living room floor and got to work.

The business side of BK came into being after it became clear it was a much bigger job than we had originally hoped. We either had to make BK pay for itself or drop it long before it was useable. From a free software point of view I can see where you would wish we had dropped it. But free software wasn't our goal, our goal was to off load Linus and help Linux. Yeah, it would be nice if we could have somehow done that with a free software product. When you demonstrate how to do that, I'll be happy to follow in your footsteps. Until then, the license is how it is because that's only known way that will produce enough money to support the product.

Try to understand that the point is to support the kernel development process, not make RMS or you happy, and it costs a boatload of money to do what we are doing. There's another man year of work put into BitKeeper every month. I don't see you volunteering to pay for that continued development. When you do, we'll talk, until then you're just flapping your gums.

---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

He isn't. You are free to use BK for everything if you pay larry. Getting something you otherwise have to pay for for free only in some circumstances is not what I'd call anticompetitive.

Mine neither. And I guess that's true for most kernel developers. Why can't you have an own opinion for gods fsckin' sake instead of blindly following so-called leaders? This blind following of fundamentalists is what has caused the biggest problem of mankind.

Hi,

Blind hate doesn't help either.

bye, Roman

Of course - pure hate is an ideology aswell.

p.s. I don't see how this fits into this thread, though ;-)

Umm, we already have tons of forks, e.g. Alan's Tree(s), Andrea's Tree, SuSE's Tree(s), RedHat's Tree(s) Carrier Grade Linux.

And unlike the emacs/xemacs debacle they're compatible and actually code flows in both directions.

Failing a more reasonable approach we could always arrange a celebrity death match. "The buisnessman" vs "st ignutious" has a nice ring to it.. don't you think?

/me runs

Gerhard

--
Gerhard Mack

[email protected]

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

Feel free to disregard my viewpoint since I'm involved in the debate, but if the only thing I ever did on this list was to post about how BK is great, the license is great, and you are all nuts unless you use BK, I'd expect to get blacklisted pretty darn fast.

It's not a free speech issue, it's a question of whether this is the place for that sort of discussion. We could discuss pro-choice vs pro-life here as well but we don't, this isn't the place for it.

---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

I think Richard Stallman and Larry McVoy, bitkeeper, the fsf, and just about everything else that could have been dragged into this former Yugoslavia of software development has been beaten to death and beyond.

Break out the wet/dry vac, clean it up, and lets move on to the next flame-fest, shall we?

-- John E. Jasen ([email protected])
-- User Error #2361: Please insert coffee and try again.