Dedicated kernel bug database
Quoted 8 lines · John Bradford
Following on from yesterday's discussion about there not being much interaction between the kernel Bugzilla and the developers, I began wondering whether Bugzilla might be a bit too generic to be suited to kernel development, and that maybe a system written from the ground up for reporting kernel bugs would be better?
I.E. I am prepared to write it myself, if people think it's worthwhile.
Quoted 7 lines · Linus
And many things _can_ be done without throwing out old designs. Implementation improvements are quite possible without trying to make something totally new to the outside. ...
Not throwing out the baby with the bath-water doesn't mean that you cannot improve the system. I'm only arguing against stupid people who think they need a revolution to improve - most real improvements are evolutionary.
I bet the thing to do is to spend some time as one of the elves who make bugzilla.kernel.org work smoothly despite the software; then figure out what incremental tweak you can make to the software to make the elves' and users' lives better.
Signature · 3 lines
Dan Kegel Linux User #78045 http://www.kegel.com
Quoted 6 lines
Quoted 6 lines
Following on from yesterday's discussion about there not being much interaction between the kernel Bugzilla and the developers, I began wondering whether Bugzilla might be a bit too generic to be suited to kernel development, and that maybe a system written from the ground up for reporting kernel bugs would be better?
Quoted 12 lines
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I.E. I am prepared to write it myself, if people think it's worthwhile.
Quoting Linus
(http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103911905214446&w=2):Quoted 7 lines
And many things _can_ be done without throwing out old designs. Implementation improvements are quite possible without trying to make something totally new to the outside. ...
Not throwing out the baby with the bath-water doesn't mean that you cannot improve the system. I'm only arguing against stupid people who think they need a revolution to improve - most real improvements are evolutionary.
True, but there is always a point where you have to say, "This isn't working, we need to re-write it". Coding by cutting and pasting existing code is not a great idea.
Quoted 5 lines
I bet the thing to do is to spend some time as one of the elves who make bugzilla.kernel.org work smoothly despite the software; then figure out what incremental tweak you can make to the software to make the elves' and users' lives better.
I am not prepared to start editing the existing Bugzilla code - there is nothing about it that I think it right at the moment. I could write a better bug tracking database in a couple of weeks if I wanted to.
John.
Quoted 33 lines · John Bradford
Quoted 6 lines
Quoted 6 lines
Following on from yesterday's discussion about there not being much interaction between the kernel Bugzilla and the developers, I began wondering whether Bugzilla might be a bit too generic to be suited to kernel development, and that maybe a system written from the ground up for reporting kernel bugs would be better?
Quoted 14 lines
Quoted 2 lines
I.E. I am prepared to write it myself, if people think it's worthwhile.
Quoting Linus
(http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103911905214446&w=2):Quoted 7 lines
And many things _can_ be done without throwing out old designs. Implementation improvements are quite possible without trying to make something totally new to the outside. ...
Not throwing out the baby with the bath-water doesn't mean that you cannot improve the system. I'm only arguing against stupid people who think they need a revolution to improve - most real improvements are evolutionary.
True, but there is always a point where you have to say, "This isn't working, we need to re-write it". Coding by cutting and pasting existing code is not a great idea.
Quoted 5 lines
I bet the thing to do is to spend some time as one of the elves who make bugzilla.kernel.org work smoothly despite the software; then figure out what incremental tweak you can make to the software to make the elves' and users' lives better.
Quoted 4 lines
I am not prepared to start editing the existing Bugzilla code - there is nothing about it that I think it right at the moment. I could write a better bug tracking database in a couple of weeks if I wanted to.
Ok, have you looked at other bug tracking programs? Can you find something you can build on? Take a look at this list of issue tracking software:
http://www.a-a-p.org/tools_tracking.html
It has a lot of possibilities... different combinations of features and implementation languages.
Could you perhaps expound a bit on your statement "there is nothing about [bugzilla] that I think [is] right at the moment"?
Eli
--------------------. "If it ain't broke now,
Eli Carter \ it will be soon." -- crypto-gram
eli.carter(a)inet.com `-------------------------------------------------
Quoted 9 lines
Ok, have you looked at other bug tracking programs? Can you find something you can build on? Take a look at this list of issue tracking software:
http://www.a-a-p.org/tools_tracking.html
It has a lot of possibilities... different combinations of features and implementation languages.Could you perhaps expound a bit on your statement "there is nothing about [bugzilla] that I think [is] right at the moment"?
* It uses Javascript in the search forms
* The search forms are not intuitive to use
* It's difficult to check that you're not reporting a duplicate bug
* It's almost all only web-based
* There is no way that you can track different versions to the extent we need to.
The last point is the one that I think is most important.
Whenever somebody posts a bug report to LKML, quite often the first thing somebody asks them is whether they have tried another kernel version. Most people don't have the time to try more than, say, three different versions, and a lot of people might not want to use the 2.5 development tree.
We _need_ a way to add data to a bug report like this:
* Original bug reporter reports a bug in 2.4.20. It was also in 2.4.19
* Somebody else tries older versions, and discovers that it was introduced in 2.4.15
* A third person discovers that recent 2.5 kernels are not affected, because the code has been re-written.
Each time, information is added to the bug database _in a way that can be easily searched_, not just as comments which cannot.
I don't know of an existing bug database system which can do that, or is close to being able to do that.
John.
Quoted 7 lines · John Bradford
Quoted 5 lines
Ok, have you looked at other bug tracking programs? Can you find something you can build on? Take a look at this list of issue tracking software:
http://www.a-a-p.org/tools_tracking.html
It has a lot of possibilities... different combinations of features and implementation languages.Could you perhaps expound a bit on your statement "there is nothing about [bugzilla] that I think [is] right at the moment"?
Quoted 8 lines
* It uses Javascript in the search forms
* The search forms are not intuitive to use
* It's difficult to check that you're not reporting a duplicate bug
* It's almost all only web-based
* There is no way that you can track different versions to the extent we need to.The last point is the one that I think is most important.
[snip explanation of version issue]
And what about GNATS? What about the others on http://www.a-a-p.org/tools_tracking.html ? A number of those address the web-based concern. Do any of them answer your other concerns? If there are, where do those fail that bugzilla, GNATS, etc. get it right?
But I see that starting from scratch is just the way you work: http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=6
Well, have fun, good luck, and I do hope you come up with something useful and maintainable.
Eli
--------------------. "If it ain't broke now,
Eli Carter \ it will be soon." -- crypto-gram
eli.carter(a)inet.com `-------------------------------------------------
Quoted 4 lines
And what about GNATS? What about the others on
http://www.a-a-p.org/tools_tracking.html ? A number of those address the web-based concern. Do any of them answer your other concerns? If there are, where do those fail that bugzilla, GNATS, etc. get it right?
Why are you so against somebody sitting down and thinking, "OK, we need a bug tracking database designed for debugging the Linux kernel."? I don't understand why you think it's a bad idea to start over. If my code was rubbish, then it wouldn't get used, and I wasted my time. Nobody else suffers.
Quoted 2 lines
But I see that starting from scratch is just the way you work:
http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=6
Well, since it's me that's offering to write the code, don't I get to decide how to write it?
Besides, I'm not the only person who thinks it's a good idea to start over sometimes - Eric Raymond even addresses this point in The Cathedreal and the Bazaar.
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s02.html
Quoted 2 lines
Well, have fun, good luck, and I do hope you come up with something useful and maintainable.
If not, I will admit you were right to the list :-).
John.
Quoted 8 lines · John Bradford
Quoted 1 line
And what about GNATS? What about the others on http://www.a-a-p.org/tools_tracking.html ? A number of those address the web-based concern. Do any of them answer your other concerns? If there are, where do those fail that bugzilla, GNATS, etc. get it right?
Why are you so against somebody sitting down and thinking, "OK, we need a bug tracking database designed for debugging the Linux kernel."? I don't understand why you think it's a bad idea to start over. If my code was rubbish, then it wouldn't get used, and I wasted my time. Nobody else suffers.
I'm not against someone starting over. I'm against someone starting over without considering the existing base of code. If for no other reason than to see what worked for others and what didn't. A solid comparison of bugzilla, GNATS, and maybe a couple others with pros and cons for each can be extremely enlightening.... even if you decide none of them have a good, solid design.
My questions were an attempt to get at that comparison so that there was evidence that you knew the pitfalls of more than just bugzilla. And I hoped that you might find another one that got some of those things right.
Quoted 4 lines
Quoted 1 line
But I see that starting from scratch is just the way you work: http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=6
Well, since it's me that's offering to write the code, don't I get to decide how to write it?
Absolutely! I'm just trying to get you to step back from 'rewrite it!' as an initial assumption, and look at what already exists. Maybe every wheel invented so far has 3 to 8 sides and we need to consider something other than a polygon. Or maybe there is an oval out there that hints at a better way. I'm just wanting to see that you have looked at more than the square wheel.
Quoted 6 lines
Besides, I'm not the only person who thinks it's a good idea to start over sometimes - Eric Raymond even addresses this point in The Cathedreal and the Bazaar.
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s02.html
Yes, but I didn't see much of an explanation of _why_ nothing out there was a good starting point. Nor did I see an indication that you had gone and looked at more than just bugzilla.
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Well, have fun, good luck, and I do hope you come up with something useful and maintainable.
If not, I will admit you were right to the list :-).
*chuckle* I think you are _premature_ in saying "rewrite!", not _wrong_ in saying "rewrite!" And I will by no means tell you to sit and twiddle your thumbs instead of writing something, even if I think that something already exists in perfect form. (Which in this case, I don't. :) )
Have fun!
Eli
--------------------. "If it ain't broke now,
Eli Carter \ it will be soon." -- crypto-gram
eli.carter(a)inet.com `-------------------------------------------------
Quoted 1 line · Eli Carter
But I see that starting from scratch is just the way you work: http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=6
Ah, he must have sipped the same kool-aid as djb :-)
That works only as long as you're incredibly talented, and don't mind being a loner.
- Dan
Signature · 3 lines
Dan Kegel Linux User #78045 http://www.kegel.com
Quoted 1 line · Eli Carter
But I see that starting from scratch is just the way you work: http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=6
It gets worse:
http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=9
Signature · 3 lines
Dan Kegel Linux User #78045 http://www.kegel.com
Quoted 5 lines
Quoted 2 lines
But I see that starting from scratch is just the way you work:
http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=6It gets worse:
http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=9
It gets worse still:
http://grabjohn.com/question.php?q=7
Do I have the only web page in the world that rejects the world's most popular web browser?
http://grabjohn.com/fruit2.php
John.
Quoted 8 lines · John Bradford
Quoted 4 lines
And what about GNATS? What about the others on
http://www.a-a-p.org/tools_tracking.html ? A number of those address the web-based concern. Do any of them answer your other concerns? If there are, where do those fail that bugzilla, GNATS, etc. get it right?Why are you so against somebody sitting down and thinking, "OK, we need a bug tracking database designed for debugging the Linux kernel."?
I didn't see anybody saying that...
Quoted 3 lines
I don't understand why you think it's a bad idea to start
over. If my code was rubbish, then it wouldn't get used, and I wasted my time. Nobody else suffers.
Except for the users who tried it out, and the people who read the ensuing flamewars ;-)
"Start over" is one thing, "start over as if nothing had been done before" is another (and a bad idea, whatever you are trying to do).
Linux has borrowed much from Unix, in design and also in avoiding mistakes made elsewhere. Do follow this example.
Signature · 4 lines
Dr. Horst H. von Brand User #22616 counter.li.org Departamento de Informatica Fono: +56 32 654431 Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria +56 32 654239 Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile Fax: +56 32 797513