Loud "pop" coming from hard drive on reboot
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
Quoted 7 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
What sort of notebook? What sort of harddisk? Is it as loud as `hdparm -y /dev/hdX"?
Try smartctl -d ata -a /dev/hdX | grep -i unload too.
Jan
Quoted 9 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 6 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
What sort of notebook? What sort of harddisk?
Compaq Presario V2000 series, with a new Seagate ST9120821A 120GB 5400RPM drive.
Quoted 1 line
Is it as loud as `hdparm -y
/dev/hdX"?
That makes no noise at all except normal drive seek noises.
Quoted 1 line
Try
smartctl -d ata -a /dev/hdX | grep -i unloadtoo.
Hmm.
Power_Cycle_Count ... 108
Power-Off_Retract_Count ... 90
I did a normal poweroff and the retract count went to 91. There is an almost-unnoticeable click when I do it that way.
Quoted 9 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 8 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 6 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
Quoted 4 lines
Quoted 1 line
What sort of notebook? What sort of harddisk?
Compaq Presario V2000 series, with a new Seagate ST9120821A 120GB 5400RPM drive.
I specifically hoped you might have a TOSHIBA MK2003GAH, which does a hard unload when left idle for too long.
Only on reboots huh?
What happens if you reboot another OS, freebsd f.ex.? (You can try that off CD1)
Jan
Quoted 13 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 11 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 8 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 6 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
What sort of notebook? What sort of harddisk?
Compaq Presario V2000 series, with a new Seagate ST9120821A 120GB 5400RPM drive.
Quoted 7 lines
I specifically hoped you might have a TOSHIBA MK2003GAH, which does a hard unload when left idle for too long.
Only on reboots huh?
What happens if you reboot another OS, freebsd f.ex.? (You can try that off CD1)
Now we're getting somewhere. There is some other OS on here because it's required for doing BIOS updates. I booted it and shut down. The power cycle count increased but the power off retract count did not.
The counts are:
power cycle ... 111
power off retract ... 92
The difference is now 19; it was 18 before.
Quoted 26 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 13 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 11 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 8 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 6 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
What sort of notebook? What sort of harddisk?
Compaq Presario V2000 series, with a new Seagate ST9120821A 120GB 5400RPM drive.
Quoted 7 lines
I specifically hoped you might have a TOSHIBA MK2003GAH, which does a hard unload when left idle for too long.
Only on reboots huh?
What happens if you reboot another OS, freebsd f.ex.? (You can try that off CD1)
Now we're getting somewhere. There is some other OS on here because it's required for doing BIOS updates. I booted it and shut down. The power cycle count increased but the power off retract count did not.
Quoted 6 lines
The counts are:
power cycle ... 111
power off retract ... 92The difference is now 19; it was 18 before.
Is the noise present if you reboot the other OS? Does it result in Power-Off_Retract count increase?
Bart
Quoted 6 lines · Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
Quoted 6 lines
Now we're getting somewhere. There is some other OS on here because it's required for doing BIOS updates. I booted it and shut down. The power cycle count increased but the power off retract count did not.
The counts are:
Quoted 7 lines
Quoted 4 lines
power cycle ... 111
power off retract ... 92The difference is now 19; it was 18 before.
Is the noise present if you reboot the other OS? Does it result in Power-Off_Retract count increase?
There is no noise and the retract count does not increase when I boot and then shutdown/power off the other OS.
Quoted 10 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 9 lines · Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
Quoted 9 lines
Now we're getting somewhere. There is some other OS on here because it's required for doing BIOS updates. I booted it and shut down. The power cycle count increased but the power off retract count did not.
The counts are:
power cycle ... 111
power off retract ... 92
Quoted 7 lines
Quoted 4 lines
Quoted 1 line
The difference is now 19; it was 18 before.
Is the noise present if you reboot the other OS? Does it result in Power-Off_Retract count increase?
There is no noise and the retract count does not increase when I boot and then shutdown/power off the other OS.
What about shutdown/reboot?
Quoted 5 lines · Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
Quoted 3 lines
There is no noise and the retract count does not increase when I boot and then shutdown/power off the other OS.
What about shutdown/reboot?
Very loud noise and the count goes up.
I can confirm this, I have a Seagate Momentus 5400.3 sata disk, and it spins off, respin up and again off when I halt my notebook.
I had before this disk an IBM/Hitachi one, and it doesn't have this behaviour.
Take a look at this bug report:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/67810
There are some references and some patches against 2.6.20 kernel. This bug is confirmed there.
Bye
2007/4/11, Chuck Ebbert <[email protected]>:
Quoted 34 lines
Quoted 9 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 6 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
What sort of notebook? What sort of harddisk?
Compaq Presario V2000 series, with a new Seagate ST9120821A 120GB 5400RPM drive.
Quoted 1 line
Is it as loud as `hdparm -y
/dev/hdX"?That makes no noise at all except normal drive seek noises.
Quoted 1 line
Try
smartctl -d ata -a /dev/hdX | grep -i unloadtoo.Hmm.
Power_Cycle_Count... 108
Power-Off_Retract_Count ... 90I did a normal poweroff and the retract count went to 91. There is an almost-unnoticeable click when I do it that way.
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Quoted 5 lines · emisca
I can confirm this, I have a Seagate Momentus 5400.3 sata disk, and it spins off, respin up and again off when I halt my notebook. I had before this disk an IBM/Hitachi one, and it doesn't have this behaviour.
Quoted 8 lines
Take a look at this bug report:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/67810There are some references and some patches against 2.6.20 kernel. This bug is confirmed there.
Bye
I had the same problem with 2 WD disks on a desktop machine for 2 years, until I activated ACPI S3 (suspend to RAM) in the BIOS. According to this bug report (https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229210) the problem may be due to bad interaction between libata and the shutdown command. Tejun Heo, whom I thank for his support, has already proposed a patch to fix this. From the description there, it looks like it may also fix the reboot problem this thread is about.
Regards
Quoted 9 lines · emisca
I can confirm this, I have a Seagate Momentus 5400.3 sata disk, and it spins off, respin up and again off when I halt my notebook.
I had before this disk an IBM/Hitachi one, and it doesn't have this behaviour.Take a look at this bug report:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/67810There are some references and some patches against 2.6.20 kernel. This bug is confirmed there.
Yup. Last I heard, Tejun has fixed this, and queued the code
for 2.6.22 via James B. But this could be considered a rather
nasty regression in 2.6.21, in that it does seem to cause significant and unnecessary wear and tear on the drive mechanisms.
I'll patch it locally on my own machines, but what about the tens of thousands of other Seagate notebook drive owners out there?
Cheers
Quoted 31 lines
Bye
2007/4/11, Chuck Ebbert <[email protected]>:
Quoted 27 lines
Quoted 9 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 6 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
What sort of notebook? What sort of harddisk?
Compaq Presario V2000 series, with a new Seagate ST9120821A 120GB 5400RPM drive.
Quoted 1 line
Is it as loud as `hdparm -y
/dev/hdX"?That makes no noise at all except normal drive seek noises.
Quoted 1 line
Try
smartctl -d ata -a /dev/hdX | grep -i unloadtoo.Hmm.
Power_Cycle_Count... 108
Power-Off_Retract_Count ... 90I did a normal poweroff and the retract count went to 91. There is an almost-unnoticeable click when I do it that way.
Quoted 4 lines · Mark Lord
I'll patch it locally on my own machines, but what about the tens of thousands of other Seagate notebook drive owners out there?
This is a problem with Seagate specifically, spinning back up on receipt of some command after spindown?
Quoted 7 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 3 lines · Mark Lord
I'll patch it locally on my own machines, but what about the tens of thousands of other Seagate notebook drive owners out there?
This is a problem with Seagate specifically, spinning back up on receipt of some command after spindown?
No, they just seem to be affected worse by it than some other brands. The bug is that libata/SCSI now spin-down the drive before the distro's scripts are done with it, so it spins down, and then gets spun up again by the distro, and then spun down again by the distro.
And along the way, one/both of the two causes a full mechanism "park", which is hard on things if abused (like this).
Or at least that's what I recall for it. Tejun?
2007/4/11, Chuck Ebbert <[email protected]>:
Quoted 8 lines
Quoted 7 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 6 lines · Chuck Ebbert
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
Quoted 14 lines · Mark Lord
Quoted 7 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 3 lines · Mark Lord
I'll patch it locally on my own machines, but what about the tens of thousands of other Seagate notebook drive owners out there?
This is a problem with Seagate specifically, spinning back up on receipt of some command after spindown?
No, they just seem to be affected worse by it than some other brands. The bug is that libata/SCSI now spin-down the drive before the distro's scripts are done with it, so it spins down, and then gets spun up again by the distro, and then spun down again by the distro.
Quoted 4 lines
And along the way, one/both of the two causes a full mechanism "park", which is hard on things if abused (like this).
Or at least that's what I recall for it. Tejun?
This really isn't a regression. It's been always like that with libata.
libata doesn't make devices go into standby mode and shutdown(8) does
it for libata. The problem here is that libata does issue SYNCHRONIZE_CACHE on shutdown. So, the sequence of event is...
1. shutdown(8) issues SYNCHRONIZE_CACHE followed by STANDBY_NOW
2. kernel shutdown starts
3. libata shutdown issues SYNCHRONIZE_CACHE
4. power goes off
Some drives seem to spin up at step #3 even when its cache is clean and power goes off right after the disk finishes the command. So, it's really bad when it happens - spin down, spin up followed by immediate power off.
SCSI part of the fix is queued in scsi-misc-2.6 tree and libata-dev part is acked and waiting to be merged, so the fix will be available in 2.6.22. However, it's disabled by default to remain compatible with the current behavior and requires userland change to fully fix the problem.
Signature · 1 line
tejun
Quoted 15 lines · Tejun Heo
Quoted 14 lines · Mark Lord
Quoted 7 lines · Chuck Ebbert
Quoted 3 lines · Mark Lord
I'll patch it locally on my own machines, but what about the tens of thousands of other Seagate notebook drive owners out there?
This is a problem with Seagate specifically, spinning back up on receipt of some command after spindown?
No, they just seem to be affected worse by it than some other brands. The bug is that libata/SCSI now spin-down the drive before the distro's scripts are done with it, so it spins down, and then gets spun up again by the distro, and then spun down again by the distro.
Quoted 6 lines
Quoted 4 lines
And along the way, one/both of the two causes a full mechanism "park", which is hard on things if abused (like this).
Or at least that's what I recall for it. Tejun?
This really isn't a regression. It's been always like that with libata.
Tejun, it is a regression over IDE subsystem
(so all PATA and some SATA also).
Dave/Chuck, this also seems like a FC7 regression
(because of the libata PATA switch).
Quoted 18 lines
libata doesn't make devices go into standby mode and shutdown(8) does
it for libata. The problem here is that libata does issueSYNCHRONIZE_CACHEon shutdown. So, the sequence of event is...1. shutdown(8) issues
SYNCHRONIZE_CACHEfollowed bySTANDBY_NOW
2. kernel shutdown starts
3. libata shutdown issuesSYNCHRONIZE_CACHE
4. power goes offSome drives seem to spin up at step #3 even when its cache is clean and power goes off right after the disk finishes the command. So, it's really bad when it happens - spin down, spin up followed by immediate power off.
SCSI part of the fix is queued in scsi-misc-2.6 tree and libata-dev part is acked and waiting to be merged, so the fix will be available in 2.6.22. However, it's disabled by default to remain compatible with the current behavior and requires userland change to fully fix the problem.
Quoted 5 lines · Tejun Heo
1. shutdown(8) issues
SYNCHRONIZE_CACHEfollowed bySTANDBY_NOW
2. kernel shutdown starts
3. libata shutdown issuesSYNCHRONIZE_CACHE
4. power goes off
Okay, after some experimentatino, it's the STANDBY_NOW that is causing the Power-Off_Retract_Count to increment on my machine.
Tell me again why we think we need to issue that command ?
Thanks.
Quoted 11 lines · Mark Lord
Quoted 5 lines · Tejun Heo
1. shutdown(8) issues
SYNCHRONIZE_CACHEfollowed bySTANDBY_NOW
2. kernel shutdown starts
3. libata shutdown issuesSYNCHRONIZE_CACHE
4. power goes offOkay, after some experimentatino, it's the
STANDBY_NOWthat is causing the Power-Off_Retract_Count to increment on my machine.Tell me again why we think we need to issue that command ?
Arghh.. okay, removing that from the code has no effect on it either. I just don't understand the problem any more, since I don't actually have it here (I think).
Can somebody explain again what the issue was, when it began happening, and whatever else? And what Tejun's fix (2.6.22) does again?
I've lost all of the early postings.
Thanks
Hi!
Quoted 6 lines
When I reboot my notebook, it powers off and powers back on. On poweroff a loud snapping noise seems to be coming from the hard drive. Today I noticed there is no "shutdown: hda" on the console when I reboot. Whne I do a normal poweroff the message is displayed and there is no noise. Should the IDE code be changed so it always shuts down the drive?
Well... most machines have reboot handling where they do not cut power to disk drive. That means that shutting down their hdds would unneccessarily wear their drives.
...while we unneccessarily wear *your* drive :-(.
How common are notebooks that cut power to disks during reboot?
Signature · 2 lines
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html
Quoted 1 line · Pavel Machek
How common are notebooks that cut power to disks during reboot?
Not common at all. Given that it wears the electronics a lot, it must be either a defect (of the kinds Brazilian law forces the manufacturer to either fix or give you your money back).
Assuming it also does this when running Windows, I'd report it as a grave bug to the vendor and demand it to be fixed, or the machine to be exchanged with another model that doesn't have this defect.
Signature · 4 lines
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh
Quoted 6 lines · Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Quoted 1 line · Pavel Machek
How common are notebooks that cut power to disks during reboot?
Assuming it also does this when running Windows, I'd report it as a grave bug to the vendor and demand it to be fixed, or the machine to be exchanged with another model that doesn't have this defect.
Given that it does not happen on Windows (IIRC Chuck's post), then just what is Windows [not] doing that Linux does?
Jan
Quoted 9 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 5 lines · Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Quoted 1 line · Pavel Machek
How common are notebooks that cut power to disks during reboot?
Assuming it also does this when running Windows, I'd report it as a grave bug to the vendor and demand it to be fixed, or the machine to be exchanged with another model that doesn't have this defect.
Given that it does not happen on Windows (IIRC Chuck's post), then just what is Windows [not] doing that Linux does?
It looks like there are two problems here:
(1) Some notebooks power off and back on when restarting. Both Linux and other OS handle that badly because they assume power is not interrupted on reboot. The noise emitted is relatively loud.
(2) Linux (alone) gives a very muted pop on shutdown. This could be from bad interaction with the shutdown command, or some other reason (drive not given enough time to shut down?) The noise is not very loud, maybe the head did not have to move very far?
2007/4/17, Chuck Ebbert <[email protected]>:
Quoted 11 lines
Quoted 9 lines · Jan Engelhardt
Quoted 5 lines · Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Quoted 1 line · Pavel Machek
How common are notebooks that cut power to disks during reboot?
Assuming it also does this when running Windows, I'd report it as a grave bug to the vendor and demand it to be fixed, or the machine to be exchanged with another model that doesn't have this defect.
Given that it does not happen on Windows (IIRC Chuck's post), then just what is Windows [not] doing that Linux does?
Quoted 7 lines
It looks like there are two problems here:
(1) Some notebooks power off and back on when restarting. Both Linux and other OS handle that badly because they assume power is not interrupted on reboot. The noise emitted is relatively loud.
I'm affected by this problem, hp nx7400 + Seagate Momentus 5400.3 160gb SATA
When "drive spins down, acpi_power_off is written on the console, the drive spins up again, and 3-4 seconds later the notebook is powered off, leaving disk heads not parked I think.
I've not tried any new kernel or patches. I'm using stock debian Etch kernel 2.6.18-5-686.
Hi.
On 4/17/07, Chuck Ebbert <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
Quoted 6 lines
(2) Linux (alone) gives a very muted pop on shutdown. This could be from bad interaction with the shutdown command, or some other reason (drive not given enough time to shut down?) The noise is not very loud, maybe the head did not have to move very far?
I'm facing this with my HP Pavilion DV4378EA with a PATA disk (Toshiba I think, but I'm not too sure, will check in the afternoon if needed). "The Other OS" does not cause the "pop" at shutdown. Linux does (last
checked: yesterday with 2.6.21-rc7).
I'm happy to test patches.
Regards,
Fabio
Quoted 3 lines · Chuck Ebbert
It looks like there are two problems here:
(1) Some notebooks power off and back on when restarting.
If it happens just under Linux, this is something that really needs to be addressed post-haste. Maybe someone should open a bug in bugzilla to help track it properly?
If it also happens under Windows, you have been sold defective crap that is being damaged every time you reboot it, get in touch with the manufacturer and demand a replacement *new* unit with a firmware fix, or your money back.
Quoted 1 line
(2) Linux (alone) gives a very muted pop on shutdown. This could
Shutdown as in "machine power off", and HDs are under SCSI control (they appear as scsi devices to userspace, due to libata for example)? Known issue, see http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7838 (actually, IMHO this fix should have been fast-tracked into 2.6.21, instead of queued for 2.6.22).
Shutdown as in reboot/restart? New bug that needs to be stomped as soon as possible, but make sure it is not (1) above.
Signature · 4 lines
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh